Urban Fantasy

[meganbmoore]

"Here, hold my veil.  I don't want it to get caught in the catapult."

I love turning on the TV to lines like that.

ANYWAY!

For most of the week, I've been following this post by Lilith Saintcrow, which is essentially about "what is urban fantasy," which she starts with "chicks in leather kicking ass," and then continues.  Earlier today, I read this post at her LJ, which is a followup.

As expected of anything that says any variety of "Hey, maybe women like to be important in fiction, too!" there are troll comments, though in this case, I think some of the troll comments had valid criticisms of the genre buried inside.

*recs everyone read the posts and at least some comments before reading further*

When I started reading urban fantasy, what attracted me was that a lot of it seemed to be a blend of noir and fantasy, applied to the modern world (or a close equivalent), and that it did a much better job of giving female characters their due, even in books with a male protagonist.  What caused me to eventually burn out was the endless romantic machinations and revolving doors on love lives and how so many series seemed to eventually turn into how she was somehow Special, and focusing more on  what guy she'd choose (resulting in often either making her seem wishy-washy, or making me irritated because not only was it obvious, but it also asn't being portrayed as being her choice) than the interesting meta-arcs and the paranormal aspects.  I mean, seriously, I love it when there's a romance that I like, but I can only take so much of being jerked around in that department. 

Also, as I've been reminded of elsewhere, I often want to shove Elisa and Fox of Gargoyles (awesome UF cartoon from before the UF boom) at UF writers (and writers in general) as examples of awesome badass heroines with romances who aren't just their romances, are never undermined or lessened, and never code as remotely male.

So, thoughts on the article?  On UF in general?  Even if you aren't a fan of it?

ETA:  I understand that many on the f-list are suffering from a snowpocalypse.  I apologize if I caused this by complaining about the cold earlier this week.

Comments

[rhap-chan.livejournal.com]

Oooh urban fantasy, my favorite genre. I love urban fantasy not because it's primarily for women-- I'm not really into books written for men, but that's not the point for me. I like UF because I like to think of a modern world with a little magic in it, plain and simple. I also am quite attracted by the idea of ambiguity, I must admit. That's something amazing about the Young Wizards series, which I think would count as UF.

I also don't READ a lot of UF because I agree with you-- there's too much romantic focus. I loved the first Anita Blake books-- like Lilith said-- until the story changed into something different entirely.

I really enjoyed that post, btw... thanks for linking to it.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I think the UF she's talking about is for women, but there's also UF written for both genders and for men.

I think there's a lot of amazing potential for UF, but that (as tends to happen with trends) a lot got lost in the things the genre seems to be best known for now.

[rhap-chan.livejournal.com]

I think there's a lot of amazing potential for UF.

Dude, I totally agree. 100%. I'm so disappointed when something (like Anita) doesn't live up to expectations. Those books were really special to me because I actually live in the area Anita does, I knew what she was talking about when she mentioned street names, and I loved the idea of vampires and werewolves here. And then..... crash and burn. *sigh*

What do you do I guess.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I've been following those two posts and various people commenting on it, at the Westeros board (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=32981) and the Blog of the Fallen (http://ofblog.blogspot.com/). There's a few interesting things, some of it is jus the kind of misogynistic put down of the genre Lilith Saintcrow mentionned, some of it is criticism of the genre done by women who are usually anti-sexist themselves on account of the frequency of sexist tropes in the genres but also because of the Big Genre Names Debate. I think there's a feeling coming from a lot of the people who have been into SFF for a while that Urban Fantasy is the name of a specific genre of literature, and that suddenly came around all the Buffy/Anita Blake genre of Chicks in Leather Kicking ass subgenre and that it coopted (or marketting did) the name of Urban Fantasy for themselves - and thus obscuring the previous books of Urban Fantasy (it's usually implied that the older urban fantasy books were better too!). Hilariously enough, if I follow Lilith Saintcrow's argument there's a mirror reverse of the same feeling from the Romance genre regarding the name "Paranormal Romance".
The best commentary I saw on the subject was linking to Elisabeth Bear's (much older) post discussing the two kinds "urban fantasy" (could track down that for you if you haven't seen it yet).

Anyway I thought Saintcrow's post was amusing to read, and made a couple of good points, but it wasn't exactly the most complete overview of the issue either.
My thought on that specific kind of Urban Fantasy... hmm. I liked the (early) Anita Blake books were I read them. They were entertaining and fresh. Then I tried reading Jim Butcher and Charlene Harris and I was bored. I read the Patricia Briggs novels with a bit more pleasure recently, but I still find them so-so. They're just so formulaic! I like when a book can bring some kind of new spin to a genre, some kinds of ideas that are fun, and my impression of the genre so far as been that it just going through the checklist of requirements mechanically, thus disappointing me.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the extra links. Yeah, I saw Elizabeth Bear's post earlier this week, but forgor to link to it.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

warning: some of those links might cause righteous anger and frustration.

Dear DC, plz to be letting me write a Birds of Prey urban fantasy kthx!

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

You know, I've only read a few books in the genre (not counting Neil Gaiman, but he's really a genre in his own right), but it seems to me that urban fantasy is really more fantastic (read: werewolves, vampires, demons, magic) noir. There's some private eye (or bail bondsman, or riser, or witch, or magician, et al) who has to solve the case while dodging jizz-in-my-pants-worthy femme/men fatales.

Of course, that led to me wondering what an urban fantasy war story would be like, and wondering if superheroes count as urban fantasy, considering there are a lot of noir influences on characters like Daredevil and Batman. And there are titles focused on paranormal romances, like Spider-Man Loves Mary-Jane.

...

Emma Frost could be an alternate universe creation of Laurell K. Hamilton.

Re: Dear DC, plz to be letting me write a Birds of Prey urban fantasy kthx!

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

That would explain Emma's descent into stupidity, too.

Re: Dear DC, plz to be letting me write a Birds of Prey urban fantasy kthx!

[seriousfic.livejournal.com]

Poor Spider-Man isn't doing much better since Jim Butcher stopped writing him.

Re: Dear DC, plz to be letting me write a Birds of Prey urban fantasy kthx!

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the "fantastic noir" bit was one of the appeals.

Don't mention BoP being cancelled. It'll depress me.

[bzoppa.livejournal.com]

Ok, I started reading it but didn't finish, mostly because I'm going "wtf" the whole time.

Can you give me some examples of "UF for women"? I... can't think of any, and I've read a fair amount of it. My mind keeps stumbling on The Dresden Files, and I... don't see that as being WOMEN KICKING ASS IN LEATHER.

Yeah... I'm having a fundamental problem with this article.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Off the top of my head, Anita Blake, Charlaine Harris (is that her name?), this one I half-read about this chick who goes around exorcising demons.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

As cliche as it sounds: Go to the SFF section of the bookstore and grab the ones with a back view of a woman in leather, usually with a focus on her butt. While I object to the marketting trend, it's a good sign.

[estara.livejournal.com]

Really nice "women kicking ass in magic reinterpretation of current world" (not necessarily in leather):

Patricia Briggs - Mercy Thompson series (Cry Wolf is a new series and spinoff)
Ilona Andrews - Kate Daniels series (my favourite)

Urban fantasy romance with ass kicking heroines (or is that then paranormal romance? It has HEA for the couple but not necessarily for the world): Any book by Marjorie M. Liu or Meljean Brook (my favourite of this type).

I have one of Lilith Saintcrow's books on my TBR pile, but can't say yet if she's as good as those two are.

[tyger-raven.livejournal.com]

Wow, I confess that I've never read a Lilith Saintcrow novel, although, I think I read a short story she wrote in an anthology before. So, I read the posts you linked wondering just what the heck she was going on about when she said that today's urban fantasy is mostly about ass-kicking chicks in leather pants. I think that is a horribly simplistic view of things. If this is her definition of the genre, then I'm pretty sure that my novels will never fit. First because I'm a male author, and second, because I'm more interested in writing well-developed characters put into circumstances that provide areas for them to grow and produce an interesting story.

Saintcrow seems to me to be on an agenda. Her opinions appear to say, "I'm Woman, Hear Me Roar! If you don't like it, then get the hell out of the way!" Does she even see how much of a turn off that can be to the male readers she might have.

Now, let me clarify some things. I am not now, nor do I ever think, I've been threatened by a strong woman who's clearly tired of being considered the weaker sex. I'm as much frustrated by the male-dominated society as the next person. However, what is served by tilting the scale to the opposite end where Men=bad and must be punished while Women=power and right and oh-so-clearly-the-better-sex?

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Does she even see how much of a turn off that can be to the male readers she might have.

Why should she care? Yeah, sure, men make up half the population, but you know they only read things with big pictures of scantily-clad women with big breasts. Actual words are hard for them.

[bzoppa.livejournal.com]

Ok, so it wasn't just me who reacted this way. I am a woman, but even I'd never say urban fantasy = women who kick ass in leather.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I do think the article takes a too sumplistic view of things, but...well, honestly, the vast majority of fiction is geared to men, and a lot of what's written for women still focuses on men. Fiction written for and about women is in the minority by more than I care to think about, and most of it is shohorned into chick-lit and romance. So, while I don't know that I agree with all the assertions and I think UF takes certain genre aspects too far, I can see why she wouldn't worry about turning off the msle readership. Especially since most published male writers I've read articles and interviews by clearly don't care that there may be female readers.

[mycenae.livejournal.com]

I don't think I've read any UF, but that does seem a needlessly narrow definition. I mean, I guess chicks kicking as may be a large part of that genre? Maybe I need to read some of these books as I tend to enjoy female characters being violent. Although they have to be interestingly violent, which seemed to be part of what the post was talking about.

I dimly remember Gargoyles. I know I watched it religiously as a kid, and I remember there were gargoyles in it... and a... girl... character. It's on my list of Things To Rewatch Once I've Caught Up on Everything Else I Want to Watch.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

The "interestingly" is a part ofthe problem, sadly. Pretty much every one I've ever picked up has had a concept that I loved, but most have eventually fallen through for me, largely for the reasons above.

[bzoppa.livejournal.com]

I just saw this comment as my last one posted, and I have to laugh over something.

and I remember there were gargoyles in it... and a... girl... character.

Some people in college introduced me to the show (it never stuck, mostly because I hate watching things out of order; torrents and DVDs weren't readily available back in 1995 to backfill). When the got to the girl, my guide said, "And this is [can't remember either]. She... never sleeps."

[lotuseyes.livejournal.com]

Fox was one of the first animated females that I ever wanted to BE. not just to be her friend or sister or something, I wanted to be Fox. She was kicking! And with Xanatos as her boyfriend/husband (not to mention Titania as her mother) the girl really had to get her coolness creds quick. I was somewhat irritated by her in the Golaith Chronicles, but i've come to finally realize I'm annoyed by the Golaith Chronicles period so its not really her.

on a related note my crush on Jonathan Frakes was what originally had me watching the show, but I stayed around 'cause I enjoyed Eliza's ability to show up practically ever male in her precinct

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

The only male Elisa couldn't show up was Owen. And that's only because he was a butler.

[seven-trees.livejournal.com]

I think, what attracted me towards UF was the same thing that attracted me to shows like Buffy and Xena when I was younger. I was a quiet kid with a HUGE imagination who had always wanted to be a ninja or have telekinesis, and when that didn't work out, I turned to books. The thing was that most of the books I read--which were mostly some fantasy book here, a romance there-- either featured male protagonists or worse, a female protagonist who started our cool and ended up married and pregnant (two things I hated as a child: marriage and other children. No offense to married, pregnant ladies). So those obviously didn't work out for long.

And then I found UF. I think my first one was a few years ago, but I honestly can remember the specific book with which I started. But UF was like a breath of fresh air. They had these AWESOME leads who were GIRLS and they could kick ass and take names and they didn't settle down and no one got stuck with a baby at the end. I was in heaven.

[kakkobean.livejournal.com]

Definitely agree about the Elisa and Fox comment 8D