meganbmoore | the break from fandom, it is not going so well...

the break from fandom, it is not going so well...

Ok, seriously, how can women NOT be interested in women in fiction, or view them as irrelevant, or only there to complement the guys? I mean, seriously, HOW???

I don't mean liking every female character ever, or always being more interested in the female, I just mean approaching fiction with the idea that the female is less important than the male.

It seems to me that it should be the reverse...but then again, I shouldn't be surprised, as so much of fandom revolves around the ideathat it's good or more interesting to take the role of the female and give it to a male instead(yes, if you slash a canonically, heterosexually paired character with another male, you ARE robbing the female of part of her role in the story and giving it to a male. Period.)

No, I do not dislike you or not respect you or automatically think less of you if you aren't interested in female characters or slash canonically paired males(the f-list would be much smaller if I did.) But I also can't remotely with your viewpoint when you're coming at something with either one.

(ok, I must ask: is there something in the world's water supply the last few weeks? I keep seeing more and more rants...not that I'm one to talk.)

ETA: No, not directed at anyone specifically (I don't post rants directed to specific people if I know them) but on comments in various rants I've read the last week or so.

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So glad I'm not alone in feeling that way.

While I'm not adverse to a good hero/or even a good anti-hero, I think a lot of the ways I approach fandom/fannish pursuits directly stem from the way I was brought up - in an all female, single parent household. It's my world, it's what I knew - strong, sometimes terrifying women authority figures and being able to do things without the presence/necessity for a man. Of course there's fandom as escapism from real life and being able to tell the difference/compartmentalize kinks/what works for us in fiction doesn't have to correlate to what works for us in reality, but I've always liked my fantasy mixed with reality and I've always liked nice boys over damaged woobies, to use a tired example. But there's always exceptions.

So am I. I mean...female characters aren't universally, inherently more interesting than male characters, but they also aren't automatically LESS interesting, nor are they accessories. Honestly, I find it difficult to get into anything that doesn't have both a male and a female character who interests me, regardless of whether or notthere's romance, but it's a lot harder for me if there's no female than if there's no male.

I love writing female characters. Men are great, and I enjoy writing them a lot, but there's so much you can do with a female character.

I get so sick of people who are basically just saying, "I don't like this woman because she is with my man." If they made an effort to identify with the woman, they'd get far closer to the man of their choice than they would by writing him as gay.

I think they sometimes forget that the man is fictional and would not be with them even if he weren't with the woman of their choice.

In Steele fandom, I have met people who call Laura manipulative, cruel, unfaithful and neurotic and underneath it all is this adolescent jealousy, "She smells, because the boy I like, likes her."

I like all kinds of male characters...and all kinds of female characters. I do gravitate more towards certain types, male and female, but I don't always like those types(in fact, most of the characters I end up disliking are characters where, if I automatically went for character type, I'd like them, because I dislike how that particular character fulfills the type.)

Is this directed at me? *watches own big ego*

I am not uninterested in women in fiction, and prefer a story to have a strong female heroine, but I don't find it necessary. Maybe because I grew up reading such strongly male centric narratives (I only read translated classics, and literature written before 1920, really, when I was a kid. USSR wasn't big on pop lit.) I hate to have a stupid heroine who just is useless and trips over her feet, but if a woman is a secondary character, I don't mind. If a man is a secondary character? Depends but I am less likely to be interested.

"I get so sick of people who are basically just saying, "I don't like this woman because she is with my man." If they made an effort to identify with the woman, they'd get far closer to the man of their choice than they would by writing him as gay.

I think they sometimes forget that the man is fictional and would not be with them even if he weren't with the woman of their choice."

This is my reaction to so very, very much of fandom. *points to post a couple days ago*

As far as Laura goes...well she CAN BE cruel and manipulative...there are times where she really will do virtually to get what she wants(look at the entire setup ofthe show...) and she can be vicious when crossed the wrong way, but hey, when she lashes out at Steele, he really tends to deserve it. But, seriously, the woman has more than her share of flaws, but so does he. Part of the appeal of the characters is that neither is perfect, they both have a lot of flaws and their flaws often get the better of them. But they also get past it, and the good far outweighs the bad. And, seriously, anything she ever does or says to Steele? The man earns it., one way or the other, whether that specific moment, or because it's been building up.

Nope, not you(though I guess I can see where you might think so...but no.) I don't post rants directed at specific people. In this case, it's over comments from various people-most who I don't know-in several f-list rants lately.

Also, forgot to add: my relative lack of interest in fictional women does not equal my belief all real life women should go back to the kitchen or that all fictional men should boink each other. I am quite happy with feminism in real life, and het couples in canon. But am usually more interested in fictional men over fictional women. If it makes me shallow, so be it. After all, I usually also prefer attractive characters over hideous ones.

They can both be incredibly manipulative, but a lot of it is a game they both enjoy. The people I'm talking about see Steele as an innocent victim of this terrible woman. I don't think she is cruel, thoughtless, yes, but never cruel.

Flawless people are mind-numbingly dull.

"Also, forgot to add: my relative lack of interest in fictional women does not equal my belief all real life women should go back to the kitchen or that all fictional men should boink each other. "

If I believed this of anyone, I'd never be able to leave my apartment again out of sheer terror of and despair over the human race.

"But am usually more interested in fictional men over fictional women."

Interestingly, the most common defense of slash that I see(except you don't slash, of course...which is why it's interesting, maybe?)

Steele? Innocent? In what universe?

Seriously, half the time, I'm surprised she doesn't just stab him in the heart with her high heals, given the stunts he pulls.

But I like fictional men to like fictional women! I love reading about straight romantic relationships. More importantly, I am compeletely and utterly a canon nazi, and thus most slash is off-limits.

That's pretty much my reaction. They don't seem to get that by turning him into the innocent dupe of this wicked woman, they diminish his intelligence.

"utterly a canon nazi, and thus most slash is off-limits."

Not to mention alterna-shipping.

Anddespite appelations flung at us, we are canon nazis...not canon whores. Canon nazis walk away if we don't like the canon and there's not enough other canon to make us happy.

And again I say: if even Gundam Wing couldn't drive me to slashing(crack exclamations don't count) canonically heterosexual guys, then nothing can.

I literally go "high heals through the heart" when I think about Steele, and have since I watched the first ep and she realized he'd conned her.

The whole point is the clash of two incredibly smart, clever people with a whole lot of pride who'd realize they were made for each other if they could just swallow that pride.

Oh, god, I don't know. I get so, so tired of the hatred of women from women that I find in fandom.

And *waves hand* I am the opposite. There were years when I wouldn't even try a book if it didn't has a girl/woman in it as at least a secondary lead.

I feel guilty that I like Sokka more than Katara, putting her in third in the 'favorite Avatar character' test. (But if people keep bitching about her, that will change.) (Actually, I don't even think that accurate, because I look at all the times I Katara does things I love, and if I did a point by point comparison, I think the scene in my icon, if nothing else, would nudge her ahead.)

In short: WORD. Wordy McWord.

I can get into something without a male, and something without a female...but without a female is a LOT harder.

Zuko is my favorite, Katara is my second favorite. Then Sokka. (and I ship nothing in that combination) But I feel no guilt over that...Zuko only wins because he lets me say "high strung, emotastic angstmuffin" and be proud of it. And you know how shallow and fond I am of that phrase.

Okay, I show this show years ago, and never so the pilot, so can you tell me something? At one point, Laura was saying something to the effect that she was the one who named him, and that sometimes she wished she'd picked a more human name so that when he was upset, it was easier to comfort him.

How did this work out?

I like both male and female characters, but I can relate more with female characters, so I tend to like them a little better. One thing I can NOT stand is weak wimpy fainty female characters. Give me a female character who can take care of herself and whip any guy in a sword fight and I'm happy.

Basically: She started a detective agency, but learned no one wanted to hire a female PI(remember: 80s) so she invented a fictional boss named Remington Steele who was always "out of town." He was a con artist who, in the midst of conning one of her clients, stumbled across HER con, and recognized a good gig when he saw one, and assumed the role of RS. She realized a somewhat controllable figurehead was good for business, ad that she couldn't risk his exposing her, so she let him. He never told her his real name(eventually, we learn he's an orphan and doesn't know his own name) and she gave him the nickname of "Harry," which he liked. Later, the man who raised him showed up(the actor, BTW, was Stephanie Zimbalist's RL father) and when he heard about that, he told her that he'd also given Steele the same name when he was a child.

Personally, I get happy when they just aren't doormats, can think for themselves, and if they HAVE to be a damsel in distress, they're either give them hell while waiting to be rescued, or only behave because yes, they probably will be killed otherwise. Anything beyond that is a bonus.

But really, most good fiction has both males and females, and part of why it's good is because it has both.

The transcripts for every episode are at http://steeleinlove.com/index2.html

I think the 'I hate reading about ladies' attitude is a product of a general pop culture that sees all things female as less worthy. So, we grow up thinking that women's problems are trivial or boring or not as worthwhile to read about then male buddy bonding on the battlefield.

I hate watching or reading things without a strong female character as lead or secondary lead. Otherwise, I have no character to identify with or provide me with a point of entry into the story. Strangely, I guess, I hate harem manga, but I love reverse harem manga, even though the ratio of male to female characters is opposite of what I would expect that I would like.

I think some female readers/fans find men (as characters) more interesting than women. Which I think is a quirk but not a terrible one; what I don't like is when they try to generalize it to "women are boring" or "I can't stand narratives which focus on a heroine" or blahblahblah whatever.

Some of that is about personality and background. I used to like to read more about men because I found them very mysterious, and having lots of sisters and female friends, felt that I knew enough of women in rl. Also, the types of female characters I encountered in fiction weren't very satisfying.

Now I've known my husband a long time I know how simple men really are, lol (no no no, they are just as complicated as women)

I always used to be searching in fiction for someone I could identify with who wasn't tragic or too girly or was going to live a life of abstinence because men liked her but didn't love her or who was super smart but somehow adorable because of her lack of feminine wiles (for reference, I would describe myself as quite girly, very smart, and not particularly sweet or nice, but not a bitch either, and perfectly happy being married and a mom--none of which seemed possible in the books I was reading in hs and college).

so um, back from the self-centered detour--what was I saying? I think it's a mistake, when it's a personal preference, to generalize it to gender politics and therefore I find it super-annoying when people do. OTOH I am a believer in the idea that "the personal is politic" but tend to interpret as "it's a good idea to examine your personal values in the light of your political values and vice versa and keep the distinction clear" rather than "all of your personal values must be politically correct!"

As for rants, I love them, rant away. I would rant more except it's tiring and I need my sleep.

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the break from fandom, it is not going so well...

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