meganbmoore (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
meganbmoore) wrote2008-04-04 01:45 pm
meganbmoore) wrote2008-04-04 01:45 pm
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Hello Miss eps 4-8 (and pomdering on manager/commander and subordinate pairings)
Before I get started on the show itself, I want to throw something out to maybe get feedback(largely because I'm trying to completely figure it out myself.) In jdramas(and manga) and kdramas both, it's fairly popular for a pairing to be a manager/commanding officer(or equivalent) and a subordinate. In jdramas and manga, it never really bothers me, and there are times I really, really like the pairing(Hotaru no Hikari, Fullmetal Alchemist, and even though it's a US show, I'll even throw in Stargate SG-1 as an example, too) but in most kdramas, it causes a kneejerk back away reaction. Some of it, I can pin down pretty easily:
In jdramas/manga, one party is typically extremely no nonsense, and one or both(and if it's only one, it's the one in control) has a very clear line drawn that personal concerns are not to enter into the work zone. In addition, in most cases here, if there's textual pursuit(whether there's resolution or not) it's the subordinate doing the pursuing, and if the pairing is understood but not stated, it still seems to be the subordinate who calls the shots in that area, and it seems understood that, if a move IS made, it'll be the subordinate making the moves.
Kdramas, though, (and mind you, I have a fairly select pool of kdramas I'm looking at here, as I bounce off of 2 our of 3 I try out pretty hard, most of the time) almost always fit into the category of a financially dependent female being in the position of needing to be saved by a well off male. Usually, the male does the pursuing, and in most cases, the female ends up working for his company, be it briefly, or for an extended period. And almost always, the "I'm your boss, you have to do what I say" card is used in a non-work context. Now, while I've seen it in most kdramas I've seen, I've never for one thought that the guy would ever back it up, don't get me wrong there. But there's the fact that, even though he would never actually carry through on the implied threat, it still occured to him that he could use the threat, and in most cases, the female, very aware that he COULD do it, does what he wants, not being willing to risk it. Even if it isn't a direct case of manager/subordinate, there's usually still the element of the female and/or her family being dependant on the male's good will, in one way or another. While there's never anything behind the threat, and it's never used for anything bad, there's still the fact that the possibility has been brought to the table, and that both sides realize who has the power, and who is dependent.
(As a quick aside, for the modern kdramas I've seen that lack this element, I can really only think of Fantasy Couple, 1% of Anything, and Lovers. And I had to think for a minute to decide if Lovers counted. One of its appeals is that the heroine is a mature, capable, financially independent and successful woman with a career, but at one point, she is put in the position of having to be finacially rescued by the hero. However, she was in that position at least partly because of him, and it was resolved in a way where there was no power imbalance, and where it gave him no control or influence over her, so I decided to let it pass.)
And if all that made sense, I think that's part of why the trope works for me in one instance but not the other, but I get the feeling that there's something else to it that I'm missing. If anyone has any thoughts about that, or about why the pairing type does/doesn't work for you, I'd love to hear them.
I'm also still a bit confused as to the dynamics/reponsibilities/authority of a traditional clan heir in modern Korea, and keep thinking I'm missing something by not understanding it better. Maybe I'll see what I can find out if I stay on the internet computer at work.
In jdramas/manga, one party is typically extremely no nonsense, and one or both(and if it's only one, it's the one in control) has a very clear line drawn that personal concerns are not to enter into the work zone. In addition, in most cases here, if there's textual pursuit(whether there's resolution or not) it's the subordinate doing the pursuing, and if the pairing is understood but not stated, it still seems to be the subordinate who calls the shots in that area, and it seems understood that, if a move IS made, it'll be the subordinate making the moves.
Kdramas, though, (and mind you, I have a fairly select pool of kdramas I'm looking at here, as I bounce off of 2 our of 3 I try out pretty hard, most of the time) almost always fit into the category of a financially dependent female being in the position of needing to be saved by a well off male. Usually, the male does the pursuing, and in most cases, the female ends up working for his company, be it briefly, or for an extended period. And almost always, the "I'm your boss, you have to do what I say" card is used in a non-work context. Now, while I've seen it in most kdramas I've seen, I've never for one thought that the guy would ever back it up, don't get me wrong there. But there's the fact that, even though he would never actually carry through on the implied threat, it still occured to him that he could use the threat, and in most cases, the female, very aware that he COULD do it, does what he wants, not being willing to risk it. Even if it isn't a direct case of manager/subordinate, there's usually still the element of the female and/or her family being dependant on the male's good will, in one way or another. While there's never anything behind the threat, and it's never used for anything bad, there's still the fact that the possibility has been brought to the table, and that both sides realize who has the power, and who is dependent.
(As a quick aside, for the modern kdramas I've seen that lack this element, I can really only think of Fantasy Couple, 1% of Anything, and Lovers. And I had to think for a minute to decide if Lovers counted. One of its appeals is that the heroine is a mature, capable, financially independent and successful woman with a career, but at one point, she is put in the position of having to be finacially rescued by the hero. However, she was in that position at least partly because of him, and it was resolved in a way where there was no power imbalance, and where it gave him no control or influence over her, so I decided to let it pass.)
And if all that made sense, I think that's part of why the trope works for me in one instance but not the other, but I get the feeling that there's something else to it that I'm missing. If anyone has any thoughts about that, or about why the pairing type does/doesn't work for you, I'd love to hear them.
Now for Hello Miss, the actual topic of the post:
I'm glad that we finally got an explanation for Su Ha's family situation. It is, as expected, fairly complicated, with her father having had two wives(and apparently, they were both legal wives?) and having chosen his family in Seoul over Su Ha and her mother. It was, however, thankfully handled in a way that did not villainize any of the parties, but instead, largely showed them in a sympathetic light and as being stuck in a complicated situation. Even Su Ha's stepmother, who views her as competition even though she doesn't want to, is shown as being sympathetic. Her lawyer brother, of course, is a darling, and her sister is starting to seem less bitchy.
For that matter, I'm glad that BOTH families are shown to be likable and sympathetic. One of my big problems with kdramas is that so often, families are shown as something that you have to beat to be happy, not as something to be happy with. Yes, there are problems in Su Ha's family, and rivalry between Dong Gyu and Chan Min(and, it sometimes seems, the aunts) but Su Ha's family is shown as wanting the best for all involved(bitchy sister aside) and Dong Gyu's family is shown as supportive, not as overbearing or manipulative, or as overly interfering Dong Gyu and Chan Min's lives, outside of the matchmaking and wanting Chan Min to focus on his job more. There are lots of issues on both sides, but (so far) none of the villifying I normally see. I'm even getting used to Su Ha's family elders, despite my need to tell them to butt out.
I like that Dong Gyu remains so well adjusted. I'm all for angst, but it seems most kdrama guys take it out on the heroine in one way or another, and that I don't like. I'm also thrilled that (even though we're sadly in love triangle-but not Love Square of Doom-land with Dong Gyu/Su Ha/Chan Min) the issues between Su Ha and Hwa Ran(shaping up to be my favorite in the series, to no one's surprise) aren't remotely about Hwa Ran chasing the guy who wants Su Ha. Actually, I'm not sure Hwa Ran even realizes Dong Gyu exists. There is a bit of that element with her(unfortunately) wanting Chan Min and Chan Min wanting Su Ha, but that seems to be more of an excuse for her, and her interest in Chan Min more about winning a game against him than actual romantic interest. Hwa Ran's problems with Su Ha are much deeper and more important than that. And yes, I do love that, instead of the normal romantic melodrama, the angst/drama center of the series revolves around a woman wanting modern life but stuck in a traditional role/responsibility, and that the central conflict isn't a romantic rivalry, but rather a conflict between two women brother on by that role and the expectations that come with it, and the roles it casts others in. In do get, though, why it doesn't work as well for others.
The drama also thankfully seems to NOT be going in a Hwa Ran/Chan Min direction. Chan Min has grown on my and doesn't remotely seem to be the skeevy lech he originally did, but I'm still not sure how much I like him. Hwa Ran and Lawyer Brother apparently had Crushes on each other as children. Naturally, they shall fall in love again.
I also like how the grandfather(he and the equally matchmaking grandfather in 1% of Anything are currently at war for the adorableness award) seems to be trying to come to terms with his theft from 50 years ago, and to win the clan's acceptance. And maybe reconnect with his old girlfriend.
But in case anyone was wondering: Yes, I am very much bothered by how both Chan Min and Dong Gyu use work as an excuse to spend non-work time with Su Ha.
I'm glad that we finally got an explanation for Su Ha's family situation. It is, as expected, fairly complicated, with her father having had two wives(and apparently, they were both legal wives?) and having chosen his family in Seoul over Su Ha and her mother. It was, however, thankfully handled in a way that did not villainize any of the parties, but instead, largely showed them in a sympathetic light and as being stuck in a complicated situation. Even Su Ha's stepmother, who views her as competition even though she doesn't want to, is shown as being sympathetic. Her lawyer brother, of course, is a darling, and her sister is starting to seem less bitchy.
For that matter, I'm glad that BOTH families are shown to be likable and sympathetic. One of my big problems with kdramas is that so often, families are shown as something that you have to beat to be happy, not as something to be happy with. Yes, there are problems in Su Ha's family, and rivalry between Dong Gyu and Chan Min(and, it sometimes seems, the aunts) but Su Ha's family is shown as wanting the best for all involved(bitchy sister aside) and Dong Gyu's family is shown as supportive, not as overbearing or manipulative, or as overly interfering Dong Gyu and Chan Min's lives, outside of the matchmaking and wanting Chan Min to focus on his job more. There are lots of issues on both sides, but (so far) none of the villifying I normally see. I'm even getting used to Su Ha's family elders, despite my need to tell them to butt out.
I like that Dong Gyu remains so well adjusted. I'm all for angst, but it seems most kdrama guys take it out on the heroine in one way or another, and that I don't like. I'm also thrilled that (even though we're sadly in love triangle-but not Love Square of Doom-land with Dong Gyu/Su Ha/Chan Min) the issues between Su Ha and Hwa Ran(shaping up to be my favorite in the series, to no one's surprise) aren't remotely about Hwa Ran chasing the guy who wants Su Ha. Actually, I'm not sure Hwa Ran even realizes Dong Gyu exists. There is a bit of that element with her(unfortunately) wanting Chan Min and Chan Min wanting Su Ha, but that seems to be more of an excuse for her, and her interest in Chan Min more about winning a game against him than actual romantic interest. Hwa Ran's problems with Su Ha are much deeper and more important than that. And yes, I do love that, instead of the normal romantic melodrama, the angst/drama center of the series revolves around a woman wanting modern life but stuck in a traditional role/responsibility, and that the central conflict isn't a romantic rivalry, but rather a conflict between two women brother on by that role and the expectations that come with it, and the roles it casts others in. In do get, though, why it doesn't work as well for others.
The drama also thankfully seems to NOT be going in a Hwa Ran/Chan Min direction. Chan Min has grown on my and doesn't remotely seem to be the skeevy lech he originally did, but I'm still not sure how much I like him. Hwa Ran and Lawyer Brother apparently had Crushes on each other as children. Naturally, they shall fall in love again.
I also like how the grandfather(he and the equally matchmaking grandfather in 1% of Anything are currently at war for the adorableness award) seems to be trying to come to terms with his theft from 50 years ago, and to win the clan's acceptance. And maybe reconnect with his old girlfriend.
But in case anyone was wondering: Yes, I am very much bothered by how both Chan Min and Dong Gyu use work as an excuse to spend non-work time with Su Ha.
I'm also still a bit confused as to the dynamics/reponsibilities/authority of a traditional clan heir in modern Korea, and keep thinking I'm missing something by not understanding it better. Maybe I'll see what I can find out if I stay on the internet computer at work.
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It doesn't really bother me in any fictional context, but I think it's not too prevalent in kdramas (I have seen a bazillion by this point). And when the situation is there, it's handled in a manner I approve of (e.g. in Save the Last Dance, where heroine ends up in the hero's company not because she needs the money but because she wants him to remember her. She is not financially dependent on him, and when he goes out of line, she hands in a resignation letter, and he ends ep confessing his love and begging).
I think part of it is the rescue/Cinderella fantasy. Which I suppose I have, too, as I find the thought of a more powerful man rather attractive.
I think it's also a lazy way for writers to get the characters into the same room together on a regular basis, so to speak.
In fact, breaking it down by the ones I've seen.
A Love to kill: She is his boss actually, as he is her bodyguard (and before and after, they are not in an employment relationship).
Beautiful Days: He is her employer. I am trying to remember if he ever bosses her through her job. I don't think so, but I don't remember. He does offer her a quid-pro-quo (her tutoring his sister in exchange for his helping her quasi-sister train for a recording deal), but that is not a using-power-of-boss thing to do, really. I mean, they could have known each other casually and it still would have been the same deal. Oh, and I think she switches jobsm and also he loses the company at some point and so he isn't her boss at all by about midway.
Bichunmu: period drama :) But yeah, rebels don't employ court ladies as underlings :)
Capital Scandal: No way. She's eviscerate him if he tried.
Coffee Prince: He is her employer. And he does use it as an excuse to hang out with her. However, I'd be hard-pressed to find gender power imbalance in that one as he thinks she is a guy. I dunno, CP just works for me. Maybe because Han Gyul fails at bossiness.
Damo: Classic example of superior-subordinate, true. But doesn't bother me for some reason.
Delightful Girl Chun-Hyang: Nope. Never employed by each other.
Exhibition of Fireworks: they are co-workers of equal (lack of) status.
Forbidden Love: Fox organization versus Police, so nope.
Full House: Hmmm, he does employ her and is bossy. But once again, it just doesn't bother me because he is such a kid.
Goong: nope :)
Green Rose: nope :)
Hello Miss: No idea as I haven't gotten far enough in.
Hello My Teacher: She is his teacher, so if anything, the power dynamic is reversed.
Hong Gil Dong: LOL. Rebels don't employ dumpling eaters :P
If in love...like them: She's a singer, he's a gangster, so no.
Jumong: She employs him. For manual labor :P And then salt-finding. So nope.
Kim Sam Soon: he employs her. So much annoyed me about that drama, that I don't remember if that particular subset of a situation did as well.
Legend of Hyang Dan: Nope. She is employed by secondary girl.
Love Story in Harvard: college students
Loveholic: she is his teacher, and then the boss of the restaurant where he works.
Lovers: Nope. I mean, he found her a job indirectly, by sending more business to a clinic, but I don't think that counts.
My Girl: yes, if in a very untraditional fashion. And yeah, they are close because of it as the job is to be his fake cousin. Seeing that this is one of my fave dramas, it didn't bug me at all.
My Love Patzzi: she is equal coworkers with one guy, the other one is her boss, but the whole drama is so awful, I haven't finished so don't remember re: bossiness :)
One Fine Day: Nope.
Only You: He is her boss. I haven't watched enough to see how that develops.
Que sera sera: coworkers at one point, but that is about it.
Robbers: nope
Sang-Do Let's Go to School: she is his teacher
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Damo: Close relationship since childhood. He gives her far more power and independence andrespect than one in her position would normally have.
Goong: No employment issue, but she is completely under his control and she and her family are 100% financially in debt to him. In fact, her needing to be financially saved is the only reason she married him.
Hello Miss: She gets a job at the company in ep 2-3. Both men use it as an excuse to spend time with her. (similar situation in Spring Waltz. In both series, there's no chance of it being used to force her into something, but the card is still brought up.)
Lovers: His boss owns the building, but (like so much else about the drama) it's done in a way where he has no power over her. It's ability to have most of the things I hate about kdramas and make me like them is why it's my second favorite modern kdrama, and almost tied for favorite.)
My Girl: I had mild kneejerk several times, but because of the setup, it didn't really hit the hotbutton.
(And I still need to see Capital Scandal, Legend, Hyang Dan, Jumong, Samsoon, Full House, Witch Yoo Hee, Snow Queen, Coffee Prince, Hong Gil Dong, Forbidden Love, Bichunmu and probably several others on that list...)
There have, though, been a number of kdramas I've bounced off of HARD because of extremely obvious power imbalances.
ETA: And there is absolutely nothing wrong with maxing out comment length...do it any time...
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I have actually more often noticed that it's the secondary guy who employs the heroine. Hmmm.
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(And you know, outside of the Disney version and Ever After, I don't know that I've always been big on the Cinderella fantasy to start with, just never thought about it before.)
As an addendum to Damo: It was also made very clear that he had always allowed her to dictate the status of their personal relationship(and it was also brought up that the situation reached the unbearable point for both...heck, it's half the point of the second half of the series...)
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I admit to loving the Cinderella trope though (though I dislike Ever After. The Prince was SO useless). The thought of someone taking care of me is pretty appealing :P
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I think,though, that the Cinderella trope tends to become all encompassing in fiction. It sometimes seems like it gets applied to EVERYTHING where the male isrelated to the female getting out of a bad situation.
I maxed out comment limit
Sister in law is 19: nope. Schoolmates.
Smile Again: they are coworkers (in different departments) at one point. Secondary guy is her boss at one point but he never misuses it.
Snow Queen: she employs him.
Snow White: roommates
Something Happened in Bali: he is her boss and it's dysfunctional as heck, but the drama wants you to see it as dysfunctional and all the characters as utterly messed up.
Sorry I Love You: nope.
Sweet 18: spouses
The Devil: lawyers don't employ public library librarians and neither do cops :)
The Legend: she tags along after him to protect him because she likes him but she is not an employee in any sense
Time between dog and wolf: nope
Tree of Heaven: at one point he is a guest in a hotel she works, briefly, but I don't think that counts
Witch Yoo Hee: she employs him.
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I could be wrong but it seems the case is that in Kdramas it is either he is her boss (or superior) or she is his boss and superior, and "just equals" is the rare case. but this could be just because extremes are good for fiction.
Let's take "Lovers" trilogy (which is VERY good on strong female characters, actually):
Lovers: I would say she is his superiour, in upbringing and in knowledge.
Lovers in Prague: (one of the dramas I strongly believe will be to your liking) she is his superior, but not just because she is a daughter of the President. She is smart, she knows what she wants and is not afraid to act.
Lovers in Paris: He is rich , she is poor but of the type that she doesn't want anyone's rescuing. She can rescue herself from any situation, she just happens to like him.
Hwa Ran and Lawyer Brother apparently had Crushes on each other as children. Naturally, they shall fall in love again.
You got it! And he is such a darling, isn't he?
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I think Lovers did a good job of completely avoid the problem of power imbalances and either one needing saving...I think they started as almost equals, and ended as equals in the ways that count. I bounced of Lovers in Paris, despite it(I think) having the same female lead as Lovers, who I really liked, but I haven't heard much about Lovers in Prague. What's it about?
Hello Miss is amazingly devoid of any males that I dislike, a rarity in kdramas. I don't even dislike Chan Min...I'm not big on him, but he mostly needs to grow up and learn to be responsible.
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For some reason I thought "Lovers in Paris" is not you, it is too Cinderella-like.
I'll try to make a post about Lovers in Prague" . It is a rare drama which had really good ratings when it aired. I liked it very much. One of the pluses – it was quite witty in it's use of language which is quite unusual for kdrama
In short: She (Jae-hee) is a daughter of the Korean president and a diplomat in Prague. Five years ago she had a huge romance with a son of one of the Korea's richest men, Young-wo (he is played by the "other" guy in "Damo"). Yong-woo was called off unexpectedly to Korea by his father. He promised to come back and marry her but never did.
He (Sang-hyun) is a very capable policeman guy. The drama starts when he is given a Presidential award and after that his fiancée rings him and says that they are "finished". This fiancée has been studying in Prague. Sang-hyun drops everything and goes to Prague to find his fiancée. But he comes across Jae-hee instead (and their first meeting is hilarious). They make friends , they RUN MARATHON TOGETHER (so my thing) but after that Sang-hyun finds his fiancée . Who is pregnant with other man's child. Sang-hyun and his fiancée have a big scene in which she tells him how much she prefer's the child's father because this man is RICH (and I am v.v. angry here because it was Sang-hyun who paid for her studies in Prague) .
This is the start, then everyone goes back to Korea.. The points I think can interest you:
1. Jae-hee is a strong-willed girl
2. Witty dialogue
3. Sang-hyun is no push-over neither and he has a sense of humour
4. there is this thing (similar with other lovers) where some other OTPs exist, like Jae-hee's younger brother's.
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Question though: What kinda of a character is Young-Woo? I refuse to watch any main character in Damo in something I'd dislikethem in. (Thus removing most of his dramas..)
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I liked him , especially at the end. It is difficult to be un-spoilery but there was a good reason why he "dropped" Jae-hee. He looks really good in the drama (I didn't find him that pretty in "Damo") And he angsts beautifully and helps Sang-hyun and Jae-hee at the end.
There wasn't really a character that I disliked in "Lovers in Prague" (apart from Young-woo's vile father). The fiancee - I also could understand where she was coming from.. This happened for me with "Lovers" too - I especially liked Kang Sae Yeon..
PS: NEVER WATCH "IRELAND" - it didn't make any favours for Kim Min Joon!
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Something like Hello My Teacher or Forbidden Love with a female teacher and male student doesn't bother me the way a male teacher/female student would - one of the reasons I hated - hated Fujiki Naohito's character in Prodai. Because women have less power in society overall, it kind of balances the situation when they have some over the males involved.
(I'm with you on Goong, too. I hated that she was so dependent on Shin. I always prefered "Beauty and the Beast" story to "Cinderella.")
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I think part of it is that the superior(position)/subordinate makes the power imbalance much more obvious than it would be otherwise.
Goong is probably my strongest domination/power imbalance negative reaction to a drama ever(even if I didn't immediately recognize it as such...I had other problems, too, but I won't go into them) because she was stripped of all personal independence and power in the first episode, and control of all aspects of her life was placed in the hands of people who had no real interest in her well being. Shin didn't want her to be miserable, but at that point, he didn't care much, either, and while I think his mother tried to make things as easy for her as she could, she didn't(and couldn't) let that interfere with the big picture.
I do like Beauty and the Beast more than Cinderella, but it gets overused, too...