meganbmoore (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
meganbmoore) wrote2008-04-29 08:41 pm
meganbmoore) wrote2008-04-29 08:41 pm
no clever title
In my post from earliermusouka_mangabrought up a very good point: the idea that all bashing of female characters is just dismissed as jealousy. I don't know if that is all it is with others, but I'll give my take on that, and how things often come across to me when I see negative statements about characters.
(This is also prompted by a few unrelated discussions elsewhere.)
Before I get into that: When I friend someone, I don't really care if a person likes slash, het, gen, or couldn't care less about any pairing ever(not really synonymous with gen.) All I really care is that we have a few similar interests, they seem interesting, intelligent, and don't seem insane(or at least are my kind of insane) and seem to be more about liking the common interest in general than about disliking certain things about it or characters in it.
musouka_mangabrought up a very good point: the idea that all bashing of female characters is just dismissed as jealousy. I don't know if that is all it is with others, but I'll give my take on that, and how things often come across to me when I see negative statements about characters.(This is also prompted by a few unrelated discussions elsewhere.)
Before I get into that: When I friend someone, I don't really care if a person likes slash, het, gen, or couldn't care less about any pairing ever(not really synonymous with gen.) All I really care is that we have a few similar interests, they seem interesting, intelligent, and don't seem insane(or at least are my kind of insane) and seem to be more about liking the common interest in general than about disliking certain things about it or characters in it.
For example: The oldest (and now, I fear, much neglected) members of the f-list are comic book fans (and some other overlapping interests) I met at the old CrossGen boards. I friended dangermousieabout two years ago because I saw her comments in the posts of a mutual friend and followed her back to her LJ, and thought she seemed interesting. She liked anime and manga, but most of her posts were on doramas and Bollywood, things I had never heard of. That, obviously, has changed, and a huge chunk of my f-list I met through her, either directly or through people I met through her. Another large chunk comes from chomijior I one finding the other through the love_deeper community. I friended musouka_mangaa few months back when I started reading Kekkaishi, because her posts on the series to ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
scans_daily a long time ago are what got me interested, and she had focused primarily on the heroine, Tokine. I also tend to friend people when they get mentioned or linked to a lot on the f-list, because I figure I should just read the posts when they're posted.
The purpose of that rather unnecessary ramble was to say that my f-list tends to be really diverse, with likes and dislikes all over the place. When a new episode of a TV show airs, I often see back-to-back posts from both sides of shipping wars, and things like that.
Anyway, to get back to the main point after that long digression: When the subject of disliking characters comes up, it usually seems to boil down to several statements:
( "dislike" can be exchanged with "only tolerate," "am annoyed by," "can't be wild about," "despise," etc.)
1. I dislike A because of X quality.
2. I dislike A because of X quality, and don't see why B likes A/always saves/helps A, etc.
3. I dislike A because of X quality, and think B would be better with C/that B/C is more interesting than B/A.
4. I dislike A because of X quality, and wish A were not the third party in B/C.
With #1, there's no perception that the character is disliked for anything but that quality, however, when #2-#4 are a factor, even when they aren't stated in "I dislike A because of X quality" but known through other means(past discussion, glance through LJ, etc.) then there is the perception that, if it weren't for A's connection to B, especially if there's a preference for C, that X doesn't have as much to do with it, but rather, that A gets the blame or dismissed because of B, or because A makes B/C less possible, if not impossible, and that without that connection, A would be better liked. This doesn't mean that it's always the case, but it's often very, very hard to believe otherwise, if #2-#4 are factors.
To use two character's I dislike for example(and I'm not sure they're good examples, come to think of it, because with both, it centers around how they treat their girlfriend, but maybe it works...I don't actively dislike enough characters to have a large pool to draw from, and some with better diversity involve spoilers for various fandoms.)
I dislike Rei in Super Gals! because of how he treats Aya, and, for that matter, everyone else around him. I understand why Aya likes Rei and I liked him myself for similar reasons(and liked the pairing a good bit) until a little bit into the second season. I was assuming, however, that there would be character growth throughout the series for him. However, there was essentially regression instead, and he just in general treats everyone around him-especially his girlfriend-pretty badly.
I also dislike(almost passionately hate, in fact) Duncan Kane in Veronica Mars. I cannot, however, with 100% honesty say that I know it's all about his character. I disliked Duncan in season 1 because he supposedly loved Veronica but, again, dismissed her and treated her badly, and didn't care that everyone else treated her like dirt. Certain plot revelations late in the season turned the dislike from mild to pretty intense. Due to one of those revelations, I assumed there was no way they would ever make Duncan a love interest for Veronica after that. In season two, however, they dated, and my dislike intensified into hate. Part of it was that the idea of Duncan as Veronica's(or really anyone's) love interest after the end of season 1 made my stomach churn, and partly because he still didn't seem to care about Veronica herself, seemed willing to dismiss her, and didn't care about how anyone else treated her. I do know, however, that it's possible that at least some of the increased dislike is because I prefered Veronica/Logan and, if not Logan, the only one I would have been interested in seeing her with(or could have bought) is Weavil. I know I disliked Duncan when I thought he could never be Veronica's love interest or be an obstacle for Veronica/Logan. I don't know, however, if I'd dislike him as much as I do if he and Veronica hadn't dated again in season two.
(Both male because...well, the only female that immediately came to mind was Relena, and I'm not sure if "dislike" is as accurate as "am bizarrely fascinated by, yet scared of, and while I complained while she was onscreen, I missed her when she wasn't there." So...uhm...I went with male characters even though it was discussion about female characters that prompted the post.)
I don't know if all of that will make sense to anyone who...well, isn't me, but maybe it will.
dangermousieabout two years ago because I saw her comments in the posts of a mutual friend and followed her back to her LJ, and thought she seemed interesting. She liked anime and manga, but most of her posts were on doramas and Bollywood, things I had never heard of. That, obviously, has changed, and a huge chunk of my f-list I met through her, either directly or through people I met through her. Another large chunk comes from chomijior I one finding the other through the love_deeper community. I friended musouka_mangaa few months back when I started reading Kekkaishi, because her posts on the series to scans_daily a long time ago are what got me interested, and she had focused primarily on the heroine, Tokine. I also tend to friend people when they get mentioned or linked to a lot on the f-list, because I figure I should just read the posts when they're posted.The purpose of that rather unnecessary ramble was to say that my f-list tends to be really diverse, with likes and dislikes all over the place. When a new episode of a TV show airs, I often see back-to-back posts from both sides of shipping wars, and things like that.
Anyway, to get back to the main point after that long digression: When the subject of disliking characters comes up, it usually seems to boil down to several statements:
( "dislike" can be exchanged with "only tolerate," "am annoyed by," "can't be wild about," "despise," etc.)
1. I dislike A because of X quality.
2. I dislike A because of X quality, and don't see why B likes A/always saves/helps A, etc.
3. I dislike A because of X quality, and think B would be better with C/that B/C is more interesting than B/A.
4. I dislike A because of X quality, and wish A were not the third party in B/C.
With #1, there's no perception that the character is disliked for anything but that quality, however, when #2-#4 are a factor, even when they aren't stated in "I dislike A because of X quality" but known through other means(past discussion, glance through LJ, etc.) then there is the perception that, if it weren't for A's connection to B, especially if there's a preference for C, that X doesn't have as much to do with it, but rather, that A gets the blame or dismissed because of B, or because A makes B/C less possible, if not impossible, and that without that connection, A would be better liked. This doesn't mean that it's always the case, but it's often very, very hard to believe otherwise, if #2-#4 are factors.
To use two character's I dislike for example(and I'm not sure they're good examples, come to think of it, because with both, it centers around how they treat their girlfriend, but maybe it works...I don't actively dislike enough characters to have a large pool to draw from, and some with better diversity involve spoilers for various fandoms.)
I dislike Rei in Super Gals! because of how he treats Aya, and, for that matter, everyone else around him. I understand why Aya likes Rei and I liked him myself for similar reasons(and liked the pairing a good bit) until a little bit into the second season. I was assuming, however, that there would be character growth throughout the series for him. However, there was essentially regression instead, and he just in general treats everyone around him-especially his girlfriend-pretty badly.
I also dislike(almost passionately hate, in fact) Duncan Kane in Veronica Mars. I cannot, however, with 100% honesty say that I know it's all about his character. I disliked Duncan in season 1 because he supposedly loved Veronica but, again, dismissed her and treated her badly, and didn't care that everyone else treated her like dirt. Certain plot revelations late in the season turned the dislike from mild to pretty intense. Due to one of those revelations, I assumed there was no way they would ever make Duncan a love interest for Veronica after that. In season two, however, they dated, and my dislike intensified into hate. Part of it was that the idea of Duncan as Veronica's(or really anyone's) love interest after the end of season 1 made my stomach churn, and partly because he still didn't seem to care about Veronica herself, seemed willing to dismiss her, and didn't care about how anyone else treated her. I do know, however, that it's possible that at least some of the increased dislike is because I prefered Veronica/Logan and, if not Logan, the only one I would have been interested in seeing her with(or could have bought) is Weavil. I know I disliked Duncan when I thought he could never be Veronica's love interest or be an obstacle for Veronica/Logan. I don't know, however, if I'd dislike him as much as I do if he and Veronica hadn't dated again in season two.
(Both male because...well, the only female that immediately came to mind was Relena, and I'm not sure if "dislike" is as accurate as "am bizarrely fascinated by, yet scared of, and while I complained while she was onscreen, I missed her when she wasn't there." So...uhm...I went with male characters even though it was discussion about female characters that prompted the post.)
I don't know if all of that will make sense to anyone who...well, isn't me, but maybe it will.
no subject
The Chiaki I was referring to was from Kamikaze Kaito Jeanne, and I really do hate him with the power of a thousand suns.
And, I don't think you are a person that generalizes one way or the other, which is why I enjoy reading your opinions so much even if I don't always agree.
But I think a lot of the people I interact with have a tendency to, when they meet someone who is an exception to what they expect, they tend to group them apart and still go on generalizing.
Sometimes I feel like I'm the "good BL fan" in certain circles--after all, I don't bash and I enjoy participating in discussions beyond romantic prospects--but instead of using that to think, "Hmm, each BL fan is a different person, and there are a lot of annoying ones, but maybe there are also a lot of smart, well-spoken ones", I get people that feel perfectly fine with talking about how 'ugly and stupid' fangirls are right in front of my face. When I inevitably protest, I'm told "well, you're different". Gee, thanks? You're still tarring an entire group of women with the same brush unfairly!
I haven't encountered much of the latter, but I do believe it's out there.
I hang out in mostly male-oriented forums and websites--not on purpose, that's just sort of how it ended up being--because the climate seems to work better with my personality. Most of the places I hang out, I can yell and debate and get into huge arguments with people...and a few days later, we might be backing one another up in a different argument against someone else.
But, in such spaces, that's where you tend to find that train of thought. It really does change from place to place, honestly. Even in the female-oriented spaces I enjoy, I almost never see female character bashing. It seems almost like a myth to me. I don't doubt your experiences, but they're just so different from my own it feels almost like speaking a different language sometimes.
no subject
Let me show you Torchwood, Stargate, Doctor Who, and Battlestar Galactica fandoms. Just off the top of my head. I'll even throw in a little Ziva-hate from the NCIS fans.
I wish. I wish so very very hard that it was a myth. But it's not. And the people perpetuating it are women.
no subject
Except for comic books(where pretty much every female reader I've encountered WANTS female characters and if they slash, they slash everything...comics are a case where most of the wank and bashing seems to come from the companies and creators themselves) most things I've dipped my feet into have been female dominated. I've never exactly polled guys about slash, but the ones I HAVE talked to it about have negative feelings about it.
And don't worry. I understand the need to be able to unload to someone from "the other side of the fence" as it were without fear of being torn into.
no subject
Speaking of which, did you see the latest "Empowered" bit on
no subject
I haven't seen the "Empowered" thing. S_D gets so much posted to it that I miss a lot of it.
no subject
And the Empowered bit is hysterical -- post here (http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/5412712.html). I am utterly unfamiliar with the series beyond the few other bits that have shown up on S_D, but this absolutely kills me. A young female super is fed up with the way the guys on her team have been objectifying her and the other women, and tries to get a bit of revenge by introducing the guys to doujinshi -- hijinks ensue, including joking about pairing names and fanfiction in general.
no subject
*snort*
That was fun. (Actually, I sometimes think Havoc's attitude at the end is probably how authors/actors/whatever feel...going from "wtf?" to "whatever, it means they like me.")
And for PoH, there's nothing overt about D/Leon and no bed(or even lip) action, and a lot of it is D's general flamboyance, but over the course of the series, D and Leon pick up that "old married couple" vibe(even to the point of Leon treating D like the indulgent girlfriend who will do what he asks without realizing that's how he's acting, much to D's consternation), and there are times where you want to tell them to shut up and get a room. That may change in the second series, I don't know. I have the first volume, but haven't read it yet.