no clever title
Apr. 29th, 2008 08:41 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
meganbmooreIn my post from earliermusouka_mangabrought up a very good point: the idea that all bashing of female characters is just dismissed as jealousy. I don't know if that is all it is with others, but I'll give my take on that, and how things often come across to me when I see negative statements about characters.
(This is also prompted by a few unrelated discussions elsewhere.)
Before I get into that: When I friend someone, I don't really care if a person likes slash, het, gen, or couldn't care less about any pairing ever(not really synonymous with gen.) All I really care is that we have a few similar interests, they seem interesting, intelligent, and don't seem insane(or at least are my kind of insane) and seem to be more about liking the common interest in general than about disliking certain things about it or characters in it.
musouka_mangabrought up a very good point: the idea that all bashing of female characters is just dismissed as jealousy. I don't know if that is all it is with others, but I'll give my take on that, and how things often come across to me when I see negative statements about characters.(This is also prompted by a few unrelated discussions elsewhere.)
Before I get into that: When I friend someone, I don't really care if a person likes slash, het, gen, or couldn't care less about any pairing ever(not really synonymous with gen.) All I really care is that we have a few similar interests, they seem interesting, intelligent, and don't seem insane(or at least are my kind of insane) and seem to be more about liking the common interest in general than about disliking certain things about it or characters in it.
For example: The oldest (and now, I fear, much neglected) members of the f-list are comic book fans (and some other overlapping interests) I met at the old CrossGen boards. I friended dangermousieabout two years ago because I saw her comments in the posts of a mutual friend and followed her back to her LJ, and thought she seemed interesting. She liked anime and manga, but most of her posts were on doramas and Bollywood, things I had never heard of. That, obviously, has changed, and a huge chunk of my f-list I met through her, either directly or through people I met through her. Another large chunk comes from chomijior I one finding the other through the love_deeper community. I friended musouka_mangaa few months back when I started reading Kekkaishi, because her posts on the series to ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
scans_daily a long time ago are what got me interested, and she had focused primarily on the heroine, Tokine. I also tend to friend people when they get mentioned or linked to a lot on the f-list, because I figure I should just read the posts when they're posted.
The purpose of that rather unnecessary ramble was to say that my f-list tends to be really diverse, with likes and dislikes all over the place. When a new episode of a TV show airs, I often see back-to-back posts from both sides of shipping wars, and things like that.
Anyway, to get back to the main point after that long digression: When the subject of disliking characters comes up, it usually seems to boil down to several statements:
( "dislike" can be exchanged with "only tolerate," "am annoyed by," "can't be wild about," "despise," etc.)
1. I dislike A because of X quality.
2. I dislike A because of X quality, and don't see why B likes A/always saves/helps A, etc.
3. I dislike A because of X quality, and think B would be better with C/that B/C is more interesting than B/A.
4. I dislike A because of X quality, and wish A were not the third party in B/C.
With #1, there's no perception that the character is disliked for anything but that quality, however, when #2-#4 are a factor, even when they aren't stated in "I dislike A because of X quality" but known through other means(past discussion, glance through LJ, etc.) then there is the perception that, if it weren't for A's connection to B, especially if there's a preference for C, that X doesn't have as much to do with it, but rather, that A gets the blame or dismissed because of B, or because A makes B/C less possible, if not impossible, and that without that connection, A would be better liked. This doesn't mean that it's always the case, but it's often very, very hard to believe otherwise, if #2-#4 are factors.
To use two character's I dislike for example(and I'm not sure they're good examples, come to think of it, because with both, it centers around how they treat their girlfriend, but maybe it works...I don't actively dislike enough characters to have a large pool to draw from, and some with better diversity involve spoilers for various fandoms.)
I dislike Rei in Super Gals! because of how he treats Aya, and, for that matter, everyone else around him. I understand why Aya likes Rei and I liked him myself for similar reasons(and liked the pairing a good bit) until a little bit into the second season. I was assuming, however, that there would be character growth throughout the series for him. However, there was essentially regression instead, and he just in general treats everyone around him-especially his girlfriend-pretty badly.
I also dislike(almost passionately hate, in fact) Duncan Kane in Veronica Mars. I cannot, however, with 100% honesty say that I know it's all about his character. I disliked Duncan in season 1 because he supposedly loved Veronica but, again, dismissed her and treated her badly, and didn't care that everyone else treated her like dirt. Certain plot revelations late in the season turned the dislike from mild to pretty intense. Due to one of those revelations, I assumed there was no way they would ever make Duncan a love interest for Veronica after that. In season two, however, they dated, and my dislike intensified into hate. Part of it was that the idea of Duncan as Veronica's(or really anyone's) love interest after the end of season 1 made my stomach churn, and partly because he still didn't seem to care about Veronica herself, seemed willing to dismiss her, and didn't care about how anyone else treated her. I do know, however, that it's possible that at least some of the increased dislike is because I prefered Veronica/Logan and, if not Logan, the only one I would have been interested in seeing her with(or could have bought) is Weavil. I know I disliked Duncan when I thought he could never be Veronica's love interest or be an obstacle for Veronica/Logan. I don't know, however, if I'd dislike him as much as I do if he and Veronica hadn't dated again in season two.
(Both male because...well, the only female that immediately came to mind was Relena, and I'm not sure if "dislike" is as accurate as "am bizarrely fascinated by, yet scared of, and while I complained while she was onscreen, I missed her when she wasn't there." So...uhm...I went with male characters even though it was discussion about female characters that prompted the post.)
I don't know if all of that will make sense to anyone who...well, isn't me, but maybe it will.
dangermousieabout two years ago because I saw her comments in the posts of a mutual friend and followed her back to her LJ, and thought she seemed interesting. She liked anime and manga, but most of her posts were on doramas and Bollywood, things I had never heard of. That, obviously, has changed, and a huge chunk of my f-list I met through her, either directly or through people I met through her. Another large chunk comes from chomijior I one finding the other through the love_deeper community. I friended musouka_mangaa few months back when I started reading Kekkaishi, because her posts on the series to scans_daily a long time ago are what got me interested, and she had focused primarily on the heroine, Tokine. I also tend to friend people when they get mentioned or linked to a lot on the f-list, because I figure I should just read the posts when they're posted.The purpose of that rather unnecessary ramble was to say that my f-list tends to be really diverse, with likes and dislikes all over the place. When a new episode of a TV show airs, I often see back-to-back posts from both sides of shipping wars, and things like that.
Anyway, to get back to the main point after that long digression: When the subject of disliking characters comes up, it usually seems to boil down to several statements:
( "dislike" can be exchanged with "only tolerate," "am annoyed by," "can't be wild about," "despise," etc.)
1. I dislike A because of X quality.
2. I dislike A because of X quality, and don't see why B likes A/always saves/helps A, etc.
3. I dislike A because of X quality, and think B would be better with C/that B/C is more interesting than B/A.
4. I dislike A because of X quality, and wish A were not the third party in B/C.
With #1, there's no perception that the character is disliked for anything but that quality, however, when #2-#4 are a factor, even when they aren't stated in "I dislike A because of X quality" but known through other means(past discussion, glance through LJ, etc.) then there is the perception that, if it weren't for A's connection to B, especially if there's a preference for C, that X doesn't have as much to do with it, but rather, that A gets the blame or dismissed because of B, or because A makes B/C less possible, if not impossible, and that without that connection, A would be better liked. This doesn't mean that it's always the case, but it's often very, very hard to believe otherwise, if #2-#4 are factors.
To use two character's I dislike for example(and I'm not sure they're good examples, come to think of it, because with both, it centers around how they treat their girlfriend, but maybe it works...I don't actively dislike enough characters to have a large pool to draw from, and some with better diversity involve spoilers for various fandoms.)
I dislike Rei in Super Gals! because of how he treats Aya, and, for that matter, everyone else around him. I understand why Aya likes Rei and I liked him myself for similar reasons(and liked the pairing a good bit) until a little bit into the second season. I was assuming, however, that there would be character growth throughout the series for him. However, there was essentially regression instead, and he just in general treats everyone around him-especially his girlfriend-pretty badly.
I also dislike(almost passionately hate, in fact) Duncan Kane in Veronica Mars. I cannot, however, with 100% honesty say that I know it's all about his character. I disliked Duncan in season 1 because he supposedly loved Veronica but, again, dismissed her and treated her badly, and didn't care that everyone else treated her like dirt. Certain plot revelations late in the season turned the dislike from mild to pretty intense. Due to one of those revelations, I assumed there was no way they would ever make Duncan a love interest for Veronica after that. In season two, however, they dated, and my dislike intensified into hate. Part of it was that the idea of Duncan as Veronica's(or really anyone's) love interest after the end of season 1 made my stomach churn, and partly because he still didn't seem to care about Veronica herself, seemed willing to dismiss her, and didn't care about how anyone else treated her. I do know, however, that it's possible that at least some of the increased dislike is because I prefered Veronica/Logan and, if not Logan, the only one I would have been interested in seeing her with(or could have bought) is Weavil. I know I disliked Duncan when I thought he could never be Veronica's love interest or be an obstacle for Veronica/Logan. I don't know, however, if I'd dislike him as much as I do if he and Veronica hadn't dated again in season two.
(Both male because...well, the only female that immediately came to mind was Relena, and I'm not sure if "dislike" is as accurate as "am bizarrely fascinated by, yet scared of, and while I complained while she was onscreen, I missed her when she wasn't there." So...uhm...I went with male characters even though it was discussion about female characters that prompted the post.)
I don't know if all of that will make sense to anyone who...well, isn't me, but maybe it will.
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Date: 2008-04-30 03:46 am (UTC)I can't like female character X because I like female character Y. Please reference Stargate: Atlantis fandom for gigantic mountains of this, especially Teyla vs. Elizabeth. The enmity is on both sides of the fence, kiddies.
And it's complete and utter bullshit. There is NOTHING that says you can't like both women and appreciate their differing strengths and weaknesses. Especially when you love and adore most, or ALL, of the male characters.
For another example: Kitty Pryde vs. Jubilation Lee. (I apologize for never getting round to commenting on your previous post, btw). I grew up with Kitty, and Kitty vs Pete Wisdom hits ten thousand pounds of my personal shipping and characterization kinks. But I still like Jubilee.
I mean, I'll be the first to admit I don't get every character out there, but I suck and have a hard time disliking any character.
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Date: 2008-04-30 03:58 am (UTC)(They waste time with Teyla vs Weir? WTF? So many better things to direct SGA hate and rage towards.)
It was actually hard for me to like Kitty at first, simply because several of my first exposures to Kitty were the WRITER being the "OMG KITTY PRYDE IS THE MOST BESTEST THING EVER AND BETTER THAN JUBILEE!!!" variety, and they weren't really backing it up...just saying she was awesome and fanboying and having all the other characters adore her and not giving me any reason to like her. It wasn't until I picked up some Excalibur issues and got Kitty/Pete Wisdom that I finally "got" it, BECAUSE THAT WAS ABSOLUTELY AWESOME AND I WOULD SOREAD X-BOOKS AGAIN FORTHEM!!!! And then I liked Kitty.
I often find it hard to dislike characters, really. I'm more likely to be bored by them and handwave-y them away, or they'll be like Relena where they have traits that entertain me enough unless something about them really, really raises my hackles. Hence all my really coming up with being a pair of cruddy(at best) boyfriends.
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Date: 2008-04-30 04:09 am (UTC)I can totally understand how that would be annoying, though.
And, man. Now I have the urge to read those issues again, including the early Gen X stuff (my Gen X canon ends around issue, like, 20. THERE ARE NO POOKAS IN MY LEXICON).
On the Pete front, I know Cornell is writing Captain Britain with Pete in it. Could be lovely. Might not be. (and the Wisdom LS ends with Kitty and Pete having a long, off-panel phone conversation, so they're... friends...)
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Date: 2008-04-30 04:18 am (UTC)I just skip around the Pooka aspect and the 500 M origins in Gen X(though I once wrote up this thing that was about 5 pages long explaining her family, familiy history, and powers because...it was needed. Sadly, I've lost it.)
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Date: 2008-04-30 03:58 am (UTC)* I found the whole discussion in the previous post fascinating, since it is largely coming from a mode of fandom (shipping) that I don't really participate in.
* When I say I like or dislike a character, it is really a statement of "I enjoy/don't enjoy reading about or watching this character," rather than a judgement on the character's inherent qualities as a person. I guess that's how it is for everybody, now that I think about it. What I'm trying to get at is that what makes me enjoy a character is not necessarily connected to my opinion of their personality. Some of my favorite characters are people who would be utterly unbearable in real life, but who are brilliant, or exciting, or who the writer/actor/artist depicts in a particularly awesome fashion. The thing that most makes me hate a character is if they are boring.
* From my perspective, when it comes to liking or hating a character, the way they interact with other characters, and the way the creator uses them in the story absolutely plays a role. Which is how I would generalize your categories 2-4 in a not-explicitly-shippy context. For example, I hate Owen on Torchwood not only because he's a self-centered jackass (and not in an entertaining way), but because the writers clearly think he's awesome, and give him lots of screen time that IMO could be better spent on other characters.
* I think I might be more critical of female characters, because I tend to identify with them more strongly, and thus partly judge them by how I judge myself. But when I do talk about how much I dislike a female character, it's almost always shorthand for "I think the creator(s) suck for making such a lame character."
P.S. I've been meaning to say thanks for (AFAICT) randomly friending my journal, 'cause otherwise I never would have looked at yours, and I'm really enjoying reading your writings about books, and manga, and TV, and stuff!
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Date: 2008-04-30 04:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-30 04:15 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-30 04:21 am (UTC)I never liked Duncan as much as I thought I was meant to. But I think the show sort of casts him in a darker light. Veronica loves him, but it's not exactly that we're meant to root for him.
After all, he does *spoiler* *spoiler* Echols in order to avenge *spoiler* and protect *spoiler* -- which is kind of awesome and kind of horrible at the same time.
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Date: 2008-04-30 04:25 am (UTC)Mostly, though, I thought that we were meant to see him as Veronica's true love, which caused an intense "H--- NO!" reaction in me almost from the start.
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Date: 2008-04-30 04:26 am (UTC)Don't ever force yourself to watch something because other people like it, because, no. You won't like it.
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Date: 2008-04-30 04:12 am (UTC)I realize I probably should be more critical of female characters than I am, but not only do I find it hard to dislike characters in general(usually, if I do early on, I just drop whatever it is if it's an important character...I prefer to devote all my attention to squees and liking) but so many are hyper-critical that I just can't be.
re: P.S.: I think...we chatted a few times at oyceter's, and I saw your comments a lot? I'm the most fandom friender ever and terrible about going "hey, I like you, can I friend you?"...
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Date: 2008-04-30 04:18 am (UTC)Anime!Rei is a jerk. Manga!Rei is only somewhat better. I think the primary problem with Rei, period, is that he and Ran *clearly* belong together, personality-wise because he doesn't feed her ego and she doesn't feed his, so when they're together alone, they're both very real. As far as matching-ups, I think Ran/Rei and Aya/No 2 would have worked *much* better. Tsatukichi and Mami... maybe.
My take on that was that the mangaka was deliberately playing against expectations, but then she never tweaked Rei *or* Aya enough to make their relationship one that we could root for. My personal Gals!future has Aya finding someone better and Ran and Rei eventually getting together after Rei grows up a little more.
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Date: 2008-04-30 04:23 am (UTC)I've flipped through the 2 volumes of manga that I have, and he doesn't seem as bad there(then again, I also liked him early in the manga.)
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Date: 2008-04-30 04:31 am (UTC)And I love Tatsukichi... I do, but my Ran/Rei shippiness -- cannot... control... eeeeet!
Anyway, I loved the manga and recommend it.
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Date: 2008-04-30 04:43 am (UTC)(Strangely, though, anime-original stories tend to sometimes top manga for complexities...sometimes...)
But see, your Tatsukichi love is what I mean. Ship something else, but don't let a character dating part of your ship influence your opinion of the character1
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Date: 2008-04-30 08:04 am (UTC)I don't know how common or widespread this is in regards to other fans, so I can't make any blanket statements. But I do remember feeling very hurt and angry because I was accused of hating a female character--one of my absolute favorite characters in the entire series; I absolutely ADORE her!--simply because I think a romantic relationship between her and the main character would be unhealthy and lead to much heartache on her part. And that stemmed from the fact that I'm a 'slash' fan, so I 'hate' female characters.
I think that attitude is absolutely poisonous. It reduces anything I might have to say as to how a female character is written and how I react to them as 'you're a misogynistic slash fan, so of course you wouldn't understand'. It reduces my love for my OTPs to something shallow and meaningless, because of course I couldn't have ended up falling in love with them because I watched/played/read the series and was entraced by the way these two men interacted--just as I become entranced with the way my het OTPs interact, or my yuri OTPs interact--it's because 'you're a slash fan, so you'll hook any two hot guys up'.
I run into that train of thought every time I open my mouth on the subject on nearly every fandom board I post on. Many time I'm expected to sit there, silently fuming, when the subject if broached while BL fans are mocked for being "ugly" or "annoying" or "stupid"--because it's okay to 'bash' other people if they have a fandom image of bashing other characters.
That is where I most often see misogny in fandom come into play--when guys (and girls), who two minutes ago were drooling over couples they like--feel perfectly justified dismissing the looks, emotions, and intelligence of an entire segment--an overwhelmingly FEMALE segment--of the fandom simply because 'they're annoying'.
As far as characters I dislike go, I don't like feeling guilty for disliking a female character, even when I think my reasoning is sound. I've never felt bad for dimissing Chiaki (my least favorite anime/manga guy EVER, I could rant forever and ever about how much of an asshole he is) as "I hate him because he annoys me", whereas when I feel the same sort of "get off my SCREEN already!" sensation towards Tamao, I feel like I have to write a term paper on what bothers me about her just so that it's justified enough so I'm not a "misogynistic fangirl".
It gets very frustrating sometimes.
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Date: 2008-04-30 08:27 am (UTC)I never assume that a person who likes slash hates all female characters, and I never assume a person who likes het likes female characters. I have plenty of "cases" (if you want) to support the opposite of both. I think the slash fans I know (now) are fairly evenly divided between prefering male characters in general, closer to gen fans but fine with slash and het, and those who just adore whatever pairing is on their page, with only a few at the extreme end where they dislike or hate most female characters. (In all honesty, I really can't get into something if there's a canon pairing that doesn't work for me most of the time. Not because I need something to ship-I like pairings and romances, but don't actually "Ship" a whole lot-but because I'm big on relationships, romantic and otherwise, and have trouble connecting if there's an important relationship that doesn't work for me.) I also know that, for the most part, I pretty much had to hunt through the "hatehatehate" to find many of them.
I think that, just like there are extreme "all female characters suck and are in the way and het is stupid" (pretty much all my experiences until two years ago) there are extreme "anyone who likes slash hates women" fans. I haven't encountered much of the latter, but I do believe it's out there. (The sheer...well, wank, I guess, of many messageboards and suchs keeps me fairly confined to LJ for my fandoms.)
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Date: 2008-04-30 08:47 am (UTC)The Chiaki I was referring to was from Kamikaze Kaito Jeanne, and I really do hate him with the power of a thousand suns.
And, I don't think you are a person that generalizes one way or the other, which is why I enjoy reading your opinions so much even if I don't always agree.
But I think a lot of the people I interact with have a tendency to, when they meet someone who is an exception to what they expect, they tend to group them apart and still go on generalizing.
Sometimes I feel like I'm the "good BL fan" in certain circles--after all, I don't bash and I enjoy participating in discussions beyond romantic prospects--but instead of using that to think, "Hmm, each BL fan is a different person, and there are a lot of annoying ones, but maybe there are also a lot of smart, well-spoken ones", I get people that feel perfectly fine with talking about how 'ugly and stupid' fangirls are right in front of my face. When I inevitably protest, I'm told "well, you're different". Gee, thanks? You're still tarring an entire group of women with the same brush unfairly!
I haven't encountered much of the latter, but I do believe it's out there.
I hang out in mostly male-oriented forums and websites--not on purpose, that's just sort of how it ended up being--because the climate seems to work better with my personality. Most of the places I hang out, I can yell and debate and get into huge arguments with people...and a few days later, we might be backing one another up in a different argument against someone else.
But, in such spaces, that's where you tend to find that train of thought. It really does change from place to place, honestly. Even in the female-oriented spaces I enjoy, I almost never see female character bashing. It seems almost like a myth to me. I don't doubt your experiences, but they're just so different from my own it feels almost like speaking a different language sometimes.
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Date: 2008-04-30 12:28 pm (UTC)Let me show you Torchwood, Stargate, Doctor Who, and Battlestar Galactica fandoms. Just off the top of my head. I'll even throw in a little Ziva-hate from the NCIS fans.
I wish. I wish so very very hard that it was a myth. But it's not. And the people perpetuating it are women.
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Date: 2008-04-30 04:54 pm (UTC)Except for comic books(where pretty much every female reader I've encountered WANTS female characters and if they slash, they slash everything...comics are a case where most of the wank and bashing seems to come from the companies and creators themselves) most things I've dipped my feet into have been female dominated. I've never exactly polled guys about slash, but the ones I HAVE talked to it about have negative feelings about it.
And don't worry. I understand the need to be able to unload to someone from "the other side of the fence" as it were without fear of being torn into.
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Date: 2008-05-01 03:37 am (UTC)Speaking of which, did you see the latest "Empowered" bit on
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Date: 2008-05-01 04:03 am (UTC)I haven't seen the "Empowered" thing. S_D gets so much posted to it that I miss a lot of it.
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Date: 2008-05-01 04:19 am (UTC)And the Empowered bit is hysterical -- post here (http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/5412712.html). I am utterly unfamiliar with the series beyond the few other bits that have shown up on S_D, but this absolutely kills me. A young female super is fed up with the way the guys on her team have been objectifying her and the other women, and tries to get a bit of revenge by introducing the guys to doujinshi -- hijinks ensue, including joking about pairing names and fanfiction in general.
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Date: 2008-05-01 04:37 am (UTC)*snort*
That was fun. (Actually, I sometimes think Havoc's attitude at the end is probably how authors/actors/whatever feel...going from "wtf?" to "whatever, it means they like me.")
And for PoH, there's nothing overt about D/Leon and no bed(or even lip) action, and a lot of it is D's general flamboyance, but over the course of the series, D and Leon pick up that "old married couple" vibe(even to the point of Leon treating D like the indulgent girlfriend who will do what he asks without realizing that's how he's acting, much to D's consternation), and there are times where you want to tell them to shut up and get a room. That may change in the second series, I don't know. I have the first volume, but haven't read it yet.
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Date: 2008-04-30 11:16 am (UTC)Respecting a character's choice of OTP is important for me, as I usually love the romance story lines in anything.
As far as female character hate is concerned, I loathe female characters who drift along and wait for the men to sort things out or who rely on their good looks to pull them out of any situation. I came to hate the heroine of Goong quite a bit by the end and NOT because I liked Yul better than Shin - which I did - but because she just let things happen to her for no good reason. Plot events are not a substitute for character development.
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Date: 2008-04-30 04:37 pm (UTC)With Veronica, I was able to tell myself that she needed closure on that part of her life. The problem with her, though, is that, unlike when she dated Logan, she very literally regressed in some ways to the silly girl she was before Lilly's death. I think TPTB wanted Duncan to be Veronica's Great Love, which just...was not a good idea. Except for at the beginning when we thought he might be quietly nuts, he wasn't even interestingly unlikable.
That was one of my problemns with Goong. They portrayed her as sounky and standing up for herself, but in actuality, she mostly passively accepted whatever was tossed at her and only put up a token protest. I never really liked Shin OR Yul, and my feelings for Chae-Gyung were basically like those for Shin's mother: sympathy for being in a situation that crushed her, but no real liking.
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Date: 2008-04-30 04:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-01 12:35 am (UTC)And to ramble/play devil's advocate here, this applies to pairings themselves. By which I mean, people are usually a little different in a relationship, and I DO think it is legit to go, 'this pairing is having a detrimental effect on this character.' For example, I have the Duncan/Veronica and Mai/Zuko pairings for the exact same reason; when it that relationship, my favorite characters started acting in ways that I hate. My loathing of those pairings has very, very little to do with the fact that it's 'getting in the way' of my OTP (note how zen I am about Kataang or Veronica/Logan, by comparison.) And I think you get in danger of having your ideas dismissed about a certain pairing if you have problems with it and it's obviously not you OTP.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think it is really valid to hate a character because of how they effect/treat another character, you know? Like, I hated Duncan because he never stood up for Veronica and expected her to be the girl he dated prior to Lilly's and Veronica became the girl he dated prior to Lilly's death and I hated Mai because she treated Zuko horribly and Zuko turned into a pod!Prince while he was dating her.
I'm totally rambling here, but what I'm trying to get across is that hating a character because of who they are in a relationship and because of the effects of the relationship is human.
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Date: 2008-05-01 12:58 am (UTC)It's a large part of why I dislike the way most people seem to approach things from a shipping perspective...it always seems like they're subconsciously blaming characters for getting someone they don't think they should get, or for getting in the way of what they want.
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Date: 2008-05-01 08:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-01 09:13 pm (UTC)Look at the Avatar fandom. I was watching the fandom before s3 started because friends were talking about it, so I knew about the Zuko/Katara/Aang stuff. It seemed crazy, but tamed and not hateful...then suddenly there was a trailer of Zuko kissing another girl, and suddenly it was filled with screeching about how horrible Mai was and how everyone hated her and she'd be terrible for Zuko. Now, I know this came out before they started dating, and as far as I know, before ANY of season 3 aired, meaning this was before there was anything of the grown Zuko and Mai to judge by.
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Date: 2008-05-01 11:27 pm (UTC)