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Someone please rescue me from exploring The Hathor Legacy's archives. I am currently trapped in this post (regarding whether or not female audiences are "listened to") and the links in it to other articles.

A couple quotes:

When women dropped over half a billion to see Titanic, frequently citing Kate Winslet and/or her character as their reason (and the special effects in more than a few cases), it was dismissed as a fluke. The biggest gross-earner of all time, and we’re not allowed to learn anything from its success because it was just a fluke. And why was it a fluke? Uh, something about when it was released, and what else was out, and er, stuff. Conventional wisdom. Don’t question it.

On the DVD extras for Firefly, a Fox sci-fi series that was troubled from the get-go and cancelled after 15 episodes, Chris Buchanan (president of Mutant Enemy, creator Joss Whedon’s production company) said:

“The initial results - they made the network nervous. The men didn’t respond as strongly as they thought they would, and the women responded more strongly.”

But you know, back to Titanic for a moment. Err...when it came out I was one of the masses of teenaged girls who were "ZOMG! Best romance ever!" (leave me alone!) And then I got over it and went into the seemingly-required "that movie and Leonardo DiCaprio suck and are overrated!" phase...and then I got over those. Now I like it for Rose. And the special effects.

BUT! a spoilery question!

Was Jack fridged for Rose? Ultimately, his main purpose is to show her that she can do what she wants: break out of her sheltered little world and live her own life by her own merits. That accomplished, he dies, and Rose moves on to a more fulfilling life, and other men.

ETA: This and a comment remind me of a thought I've had a few times but never put enormous thought into. Does it seem to anyone else that attention to women and movies comes in waves? Like, you have the 30s-50s, where parts of various movies-if not entire movies-seem to be specifically geared towards women, not just in terms of romance. And then it's like studios went "Hey! All women need is to have a woman there. We'll just tuck her into the background and focus on the guys. Who are more interesting anyway. All women want is a romance anyway." And then you get to Sci Fi and fantasy getting popular, and somebody notices "Hey! I think some women like this stuff!" and we get Heroines. And then studios got deja vu and went "Hey! All women need is to have a woman there. We'll just tuck her into the background and focus on the guys. Who are more interesting anyway. All women want is a romance anyway." again.

Leia: Politician, rebel, soldier, leader. Dictates her own life and fate. Says "stuff you" when men object.
Padme: Politician, leader, sometime-fighter. Starts awesome, ultimately reduced to a source of Anakin's angst.

Both spawned from the same brain, just a couple decades apart.

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Hollywood used to rely heavily on "women's pictures", way back when cheap afternoon matinees were the order of the day. Movies filled the same niche as daytime TV does now, and the biggest female stars were the ones who appealed to women.

But now that the ticket prices have gone through the roof and people attend only once in a while instead of every week, the whole slant is towards the damn blockbusters, and I suppose the studios' thinking is, "She'll go with him to see the little-boy power fantasy, but he sure won't go see the chick flick with her. Do the math." :P

The first time I tried to watch Titanic on TV, I couldn't even stick it through to the special effects because I thought the writing was so bad! I have no opinion on DiCaprio, though I like Kate Winslet in general. Then years later my kid got interested in the disaster, I rented the DVD for him, and we just SKIPPED the boring parts and watched that puppy go down! :D

I admit I went through the teenage girl phase when it came to Titantic and absolutely loved the movie (hey I was 15). While I am definitely well over that stage now I still think it is a good movie. Maybe not one of the greatest movies ever but enjoyable enough. I think the movie still gets more backlash now then it deserves.

Was Jack fridged for Rose? Ultimately, his main purpose is to show her that she can do what she wants: break out of her sheltered little world and live her own life by her own merits. That accomplished, he dies, and Rose moves on to a more fulfilling life, and other men.

How horrible is it that I laughed at this?

I guess he was! But I'd like to add the caveat that I don't think it should be referred to as a "Fridging" unless it's done in poor taste.

It also pisses me off that they're writing off women like that. What, like women wouldn't KNOW what they liked about the fucking movie?!

A true story about me coming home after seeing Titanic:

Mom: How was it?
Me: Sad.
Mom: Really? I didn't think it'd be sad.
Me: ...

Hmmm. I was already 31 when "Titanic" happened so my reaction was "Pretty average film with good special effects". But when I realised that this film won the Oscar I knew I would never trust Oscars again. :D

The film isn't bad but it was probably the most overhyped film of all times.

And yep, Leonardo's role was to die. It is not as if this film creators really wanted to give us a rich girl/poor boy romance, they just wanted to pretend they did.

Your point about there being few Hollywood movies with interesting women is spot-on (I want to use that particular phrasing because unfortunately Hollywood does produce a number of 'women-oriented' movies, but most of those are incipid romcoms where women are neurotic, useless basketcases only needing to marry and of no intrinsic interest whatsoever).

It also made me realize why I think I ended up going off the deep end so for dramas. While I wouldn't call a vast majority of them feminist (most of them have fairly traditional 'love conquers all' message, not that there is anything wrong with that), they are woman-oriented and their heroines are as present and as interesting as the men, whether it's a historical epic (the current Kingdom of the Winds has a plethora of strong and interesting women characters) or even a fluffy romcom (I wouldn't consider the heroine of ISWAK a feminist model or even particularly bright, but there is no doubt ISWAK is her story, told through 'her' lens, unlike a lot of American movies which purport to be telling a woman's story but in reality barely bother creating a character at all).

Could it be pushback? Women gain the vote in 1922, the following decades marginalize women; women work in factories in WWII, the following decades marginalize women; women's lib happens in the 1970s, the following decades marginalize women; and now we are finally getting out of post-feminism and into post-post-feminism?

I admit the dates don't line up.

The thing I always found weird about Titanic was the end sequence where Rose is reunited with Jack (in heaven??). What about her husband? Her children? She knew Jack for what, two days? Man, that end sequence still bugs me. It's like, yeah, he encouraged her to go out and live this great life, but ultimately nothing she did after he died mattered as much as him, so clearly she would want to spend eternity with him on the phantom Titanic. (On the other hand it is a movie, and the scene works as far as giving emotional closure, since we never meet her husband or family other than the granddaughter, and thus the audience has no attachment to them.)

I agree that the majority of women's roles in TV and movies are sadly underwritten. Most romcoms are very annoying because the main aspect of the woman's identity is that she needs a man in some way. There are a couple 80s romcoms that I really like, Working Girl and Moonstruck, where the movies are really the woman's story and the romance plot is just a part of that. I can't think of any really recent movies that fit that mold, though.

I hated Titanic before I even watched it--I went to an elementary school with preteen girls with all the charm and personality of pit-bulls. My older sister eventually forced me to watch the movie, and just as she started tearing up over Jack dying, I laughed with horrific malicious glee-and then proceeded to rewind and play his death over and over again. In retrospect, Rose as a character is fascinating to me and I like her growth in the film--but I won't ever be able to watch that movie again due to old scars =_=

Gah. Padme. Classic "female character redux" syndrome. Your theory holds water--watching the Avengers (a British television series that aired between the 40's and 60's, which was later adapted into a movie in the 21st century) also kind of shows this. In the original episodes, Emma Peel's character starts out as an awesome dame who can work well enough on her own, but as the series progressed into the colored television era, she pretty much suffered from "I am a woman that needs to be saved despite being kickass" syndrome. Then, in the 2000-something movie adaptation, Emma Peel was once again awesome--and despite the explicit romantic relationship that developed between her and John Steed, she maintained her independent character instead of becoming "attached to the action" (in my opinion).

Thanks for linking me to that blog! I went over, intending only to scan the front page, but got thoroughly distracted by all the cool articles.

I do see some of those cycles in female characters too. Take Vicki Vale. Bakc in the original Batman series, she was an independent reporter more interested in getting scoops than a date with Bruce Wayne. In Frank Miller's hands, she became a vacuous gossip columnist who strolls around her glass-walled apartment in the middle of the city in lacy pink lingerie and high heels. *facepalms*

I was 15 when Titanic came out and I remember that it wasn't Jack dying that had me crying buckets, it was all that senseless death, so many people died and it just broke my heart. It was a huge plus that Rose as a character was someone I really clicked with. Yes, Jack died and it didn't break her, it made her bloody strong, she ended up doing everything she'd dreamed of doing and I loved her for it.

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