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meganbmoore*This is being typed very late with me exhausted but wide awake after a shower. Expect more typos than usual."
This is my attempt to write up the "Beyond the Hero's Journey" panel, as people expressed an interest in it in my previous locked post. I primarily noted the works that were mentioned, and the rest is constructed based on my memories, so expect errors/liberal paraphrasing.
The moderator, Valerie Frankel, recently published a non-fiction book "From Girl to Goddess" chronicling the heroine's journey through myth and legend. I actually met her on the first day of the con, and she mentioned that she had over 300 sources for the book. In the panel, she passed out a flier comparing the heroine's journey to the hero's, and where Campbell has "Facing the temptress," she has "Facing Bluebeard." Later in the panel, she mentioned that she had a world map that she colored in with a marker to make sure she didn't miss any parts of the world.
After the following panel slot, she helped me track down the last copy of the book in the Dealer's Room.
Her website, www.vefrankel.com, has more information about the book and her sources.
The panel itself, IIRC, opened with an explanation of the most typical iteration of the Hero's Journey: boy who feels unappreciated and is raised by relatives/foster family meets an important male mentor who tells him he is Special, and he goes off to save the world. Harry Potter and Eragon were cited as recent textbook examples, as well as anything by Terry Brooks, and Arthurian legend was mentioned and Star Wars was discussed for a while.
John O'Neill, the editor of Black Gate magazine, said that his readers expected and demanded that the stories he published follow the Hero's Journey, and later added that reader's like to be challenged, but not surprised, and want the exact story they think they're getting going in. The other panelists all seemed to disagree to varying degrees, though Hiromi Goto was the most vocal, saying something along the lines that comfort reading and familiar stories are good, but that creators should also assume that readers are open to new things and new stories.
Most of the panel revolved around things that in some way subvert or deconstruct the traditional, male and euro-centric approachto the hero's journey. Marie Brennan's website www.swantower.com was mentioned as a resource for finding non-euro-centric fantasy stories. while I follow her on livejournal, I haven't actually explored her website.
Some of the works mentioned were:
"Mulan" (Disney movie, though I'd say the reasons cited-stripiing away the glamour of girl running off to war and showing it as hard and awful would apply even more to the recent live action version starring Zhao Wei, though I doubt most of the panelists have had a chance to see that yet.)
One panelist (I for which of the other 2 it was, but she had awesome green hair) mentioned Farscape as ostensibly following the Hero's Journey, but one where it kicks off with the hero getting beat up by a girl, followed by a brief spurt of fangirling Aeryn Sun. As one does.
Miyazaki's films were mentioned for not strictly following the hero's journey despite having similar plot's to the hero's journey. O'Neill mentioned that a problem he has with the movies is that it takes him several viewings to figure out who the antagonists and protagonists are. At some point in the panel, I think he may have said that not having a clear antagonist and protagonist makes a work less accessible to readers, though that may be a conclusion I'm inferring from his overall comments. Goto said that while Western feminists like Miyazaki's stories for having more female-centric stories, Japanese feminists scorn them because the target audience is a certain type of otaku for whom the heroines serve as a mother figure, and then there was some discussion of how many of them fit the "Angel of the house" type to some degree.
Megan Whalen Turner's "Thief" series was mentioned for also having a brutal take on the Hero's Journey. It was also mentioned that Eddis and Attolia fill a similar narrative role to Penelope and Buffy in that all four "hold down the fort" against invaders/usurpers.
(I hope someone with detailed notes posts on these last 2 parts.)
Jacqueline Carey's "Kushiel" books and Anne Bishop's "Black Jewels" series were mentioned as series with an unconventional, female-centric take on the Hero's Journey, but also as being controversial and not always successful for some.
Rosemary Kirstein's (SP?) " Steerswoman" and Vonda McIntyre's "Dreamsnake" were mentioned and got a very enthused response from the audience, but I haven't read them and few details were mentioned.
Robin McKinley's "Blue Sword" and "Hero and the Crown" were discussed. "Hero" moreso, and there was afocus on ahow Aren lacks special powers, and had to seriously study dragons for a long time before she went off to fight one. A panelist commented that there was a colonialist aspect to the books and an audience member said that it was anti-colonialist, but they didn't get deeper into it.
Jim butcher's "Dresden Files" was mentioned as an anti-hero's journey.
Philip Pullman's Dark Materials was discussed in 2 contexts. the first was that while the mentor's male heroes get are typically held up as positive role models, heroines more often got evil witches and wicked stepmothers. While the spoiler regarding Lyra and Coulter's relationship sadly wasn't discussed that I recall, it was mentioned that while Coulter was teaching Lyra, it wasn't "positive" teaching. The second was that while male heroes typically get swords, heroines typically get "useful" items-spindles, shoes, compasses, glowing balls (I assume this was a reference to Eilonwy in Lloyd Alexander's Prydain books-other references were easierto pin down) and that, when the older fairy tales and myths were created, many of these items that strike us as odd were important parts of women's daily lives.
Heather Tomlinson's "Toads and Diamonds" was brought up as using post-colonial India to deconstruct that fairy tale.
A few others were mentioned that I didn't write down.
Things I wanted to mention but the Q&A section was short:
Fuyumi Ono's "Twelve Kingdoms" series. There is a tag with multiple entries.
L.J. Smith's Solstice books-I discussed it in my post on the books, but here we have a positive female mentor, a female destined hero/Arthur figure, the girl's daydreams being useful and helping them to be heroes and the boy's daydream being useless, not to mention his always wandering off and being besotted with mysterious fae women he keeps being warned about.
How Taran in the Prydain books fits the traditional Hero and Hero's Journey on the surface, but has to work hard for years to be worthy of the Hero's Sword, has no special parentage and his Heroic Destiny is only what he earns.
Shoujo manga.
This is my attempt to write up the "Beyond the Hero's Journey" panel, as people expressed an interest in it in my previous locked post. I primarily noted the works that were mentioned, and the rest is constructed based on my memories, so expect errors/liberal paraphrasing.
The moderator, Valerie Frankel, recently published a non-fiction book "From Girl to Goddess" chronicling the heroine's journey through myth and legend. I actually met her on the first day of the con, and she mentioned that she had over 300 sources for the book. In the panel, she passed out a flier comparing the heroine's journey to the hero's, and where Campbell has "Facing the temptress," she has "Facing Bluebeard." Later in the panel, she mentioned that she had a world map that she colored in with a marker to make sure she didn't miss any parts of the world.
After the following panel slot, she helped me track down the last copy of the book in the Dealer's Room.
Her website, www.vefrankel.com, has more information about the book and her sources.
The panel itself, IIRC, opened with an explanation of the most typical iteration of the Hero's Journey: boy who feels unappreciated and is raised by relatives/foster family meets an important male mentor who tells him he is Special, and he goes off to save the world. Harry Potter and Eragon were cited as recent textbook examples, as well as anything by Terry Brooks, and Arthurian legend was mentioned and Star Wars was discussed for a while.
John O'Neill, the editor of Black Gate magazine, said that his readers expected and demanded that the stories he published follow the Hero's Journey, and later added that reader's like to be challenged, but not surprised, and want the exact story they think they're getting going in. The other panelists all seemed to disagree to varying degrees, though Hiromi Goto was the most vocal, saying something along the lines that comfort reading and familiar stories are good, but that creators should also assume that readers are open to new things and new stories.
Most of the panel revolved around things that in some way subvert or deconstruct the traditional, male and euro-centric approachto the hero's journey. Marie Brennan's website www.swantower.com was mentioned as a resource for finding non-euro-centric fantasy stories. while I follow her on livejournal, I haven't actually explored her website.
Some of the works mentioned were:
"Mulan" (Disney movie, though I'd say the reasons cited-stripiing away the glamour of girl running off to war and showing it as hard and awful would apply even more to the recent live action version starring Zhao Wei, though I doubt most of the panelists have had a chance to see that yet.)
One panelist (I for which of the other 2 it was, but she had awesome green hair) mentioned Farscape as ostensibly following the Hero's Journey, but one where it kicks off with the hero getting beat up by a girl, followed by a brief spurt of fangirling Aeryn Sun. As one does.
Miyazaki's films were mentioned for not strictly following the hero's journey despite having similar plot's to the hero's journey. O'Neill mentioned that a problem he has with the movies is that it takes him several viewings to figure out who the antagonists and protagonists are. At some point in the panel, I think he may have said that not having a clear antagonist and protagonist makes a work less accessible to readers, though that may be a conclusion I'm inferring from his overall comments. Goto said that while Western feminists like Miyazaki's stories for having more female-centric stories, Japanese feminists scorn them because the target audience is a certain type of otaku for whom the heroines serve as a mother figure, and then there was some discussion of how many of them fit the "Angel of the house" type to some degree.
Megan Whalen Turner's "Thief" series was mentioned for also having a brutal take on the Hero's Journey. It was also mentioned that Eddis and Attolia fill a similar narrative role to Penelope and Buffy in that all four "hold down the fort" against invaders/usurpers.
(I hope someone with detailed notes posts on these last 2 parts.)
Jacqueline Carey's "Kushiel" books and Anne Bishop's "Black Jewels" series were mentioned as series with an unconventional, female-centric take on the Hero's Journey, but also as being controversial and not always successful for some.
Rosemary Kirstein's (SP?) " Steerswoman" and Vonda McIntyre's "Dreamsnake" were mentioned and got a very enthused response from the audience, but I haven't read them and few details were mentioned.
Robin McKinley's "Blue Sword" and "Hero and the Crown" were discussed. "Hero" moreso, and there was afocus on ahow Aren lacks special powers, and had to seriously study dragons for a long time before she went off to fight one. A panelist commented that there was a colonialist aspect to the books and an audience member said that it was anti-colonialist, but they didn't get deeper into it.
Jim butcher's "Dresden Files" was mentioned as an anti-hero's journey.
Philip Pullman's Dark Materials was discussed in 2 contexts. the first was that while the mentor's male heroes get are typically held up as positive role models, heroines more often got evil witches and wicked stepmothers. While the spoiler regarding Lyra and Coulter's relationship sadly wasn't discussed that I recall, it was mentioned that while Coulter was teaching Lyra, it wasn't "positive" teaching. The second was that while male heroes typically get swords, heroines typically get "useful" items-spindles, shoes, compasses, glowing balls (I assume this was a reference to Eilonwy in Lloyd Alexander's Prydain books-other references were easierto pin down) and that, when the older fairy tales and myths were created, many of these items that strike us as odd were important parts of women's daily lives.
Heather Tomlinson's "Toads and Diamonds" was brought up as using post-colonial India to deconstruct that fairy tale.
A few others were mentioned that I didn't write down.
Things I wanted to mention but the Q&A section was short:
Fuyumi Ono's "Twelve Kingdoms" series. There is a tag with multiple entries.
L.J. Smith's Solstice books-I discussed it in my post on the books, but here we have a positive female mentor, a female destined hero/Arthur figure, the girl's daydreams being useful and helping them to be heroes and the boy's daydream being useless, not to mention his always wandering off and being besotted with mysterious fae women he keeps being warned about.
How Taran in the Prydain books fits the traditional Hero and Hero's Journey on the surface, but has to work hard for years to be worthy of the Hero's Sword, has no special parentage and his Heroic Destiny is only what he earns.
Shoujo manga.
no subject
Date: 2011-05-31 06:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-05-31 06:33 pm (UTC)That sounds like a great panel.