the break from fandom, it is not going so well...

[meganbmoore]

Ok, seriously, how can women NOT be interested in women in fiction, or view them as irrelevant, or only there to complement the guys?  I mean, seriously, HOW???

I don't mean liking every female character ever, or always being more interested in the female, I just mean approaching fiction with the idea that the female is less important than the male.

It seems to me that it should be the reverse...but then again, I shouldn't be surprised, as so much of fandom revolves around the ideathat it's good or more interesting to take the role of the female and give it to a male instead(yes, if you slash a canonically, heterosexually paired character with another male, you ARE robbing the female of part of her role in the story and giving it to a male.  Period.)

No, I do not dislike you or not respect you or automatically think less of you if you aren't interested in female characters or slash canonically paired males(the f-list would be much smaller if I did.)  But I also can't remotely with your viewpoint when you're coming at something with either one.

(ok, I must ask:  is there something in the world's water supply the last few weeks?  I keep seeing more and more rants...not that I'm one to talk.) 

ETA: No, not directed at anyone specifically (I don't post rants directed to specific people if I know them) but on comments in various rants I've read the last week or so.

Comments

[laura-holt-pi.livejournal.com]

So glad I'm not alone in feeling that way.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

So am I. I mean...female characters aren't universally, inherently more interesting than male characters, but they also aren't automatically LESS interesting, nor are they accessories. Honestly, I find it difficult to get into anything that doesn't have both a male and a female character who interests me, regardless of whether or notthere's romance, but it's a lot harder for me if there's no female than if there's no male.

[laura-holt-pi.livejournal.com]

I love writing female characters. Men are great, and I enjoy writing them a lot, but there's so much you can do with a female character.

I get so sick of people who are basically just saying, "I don't like this woman because she is with my man." If they made an effort to identify with the woman, they'd get far closer to the man of their choice than they would by writing him as gay.

I think they sometimes forget that the man is fictional and would not be with them even if he weren't with the woman of their choice.

In Steele fandom, I have met people who call Laura manipulative, cruel, unfaithful and neurotic and underneath it all is this adolescent jealousy, "She smells, because the boy I like, likes her."

I concur.

[calledinvain.livejournal.com]

While I'm not adverse to a good hero/or even a good anti-hero, I think a lot of the ways I approach fandom/fannish pursuits directly stem from the way I was brought up - in an all female, single parent household. It's my world, it's what I knew - strong, sometimes terrifying women authority figures and being able to do things without the presence/necessity for a man. Of course there's fandom as escapism from real life and being able to tell the difference/compartmentalize kinks/what works for us in fiction doesn't have to correlate to what works for us in reality, but I've always liked my fantasy mixed with reality and I've always liked nice boys over damaged woobies, to use a tired example. But there's always exceptions.

Re: I concur.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I like all kinds of male characters...and all kinds of female characters. I do gravitate more towards certain types, male and female, but I don't always like those types(in fact, most of the characters I end up disliking are characters where, if I automatically went for character type, I'd like them, because I dislike how that particular character fulfills the type.)

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Is this directed at me? *watches own big ego*

I am not uninterested in women in fiction, and prefer a story to have a strong female heroine, but I don't find it necessary. Maybe because I grew up reading such strongly male centric narratives (I only read translated classics, and literature written before 1920, really, when I was a kid. USSR wasn't big on pop lit.) I hate to have a stupid heroine who just is useless and trips over her feet, but if a woman is a secondary character, I don't mind. If a man is a secondary character? Depends but I am less likely to be interested.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Nope, not you(though I guess I can see where you might think so...but no.) I don't post rants directed at specific people. In this case, it's over comments from various people-most who I don't know-in several f-list rants lately.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Also, forgot to add: my relative lack of interest in fictional women does not equal my belief all real life women should go back to the kitchen or that all fictional men should boink each other. I am quite happy with feminism in real life, and het couples in canon. But am usually more interested in fictional men over fictional women. If it makes me shallow, so be it. After all, I usually also prefer attractive characters over hideous ones.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Oh, god, I don't know. I get so, so tired of the hatred of women from women that I find in fandom.

And *waves hand* I am the opposite. There were years when I wouldn't even try a book if it didn't has a girl/woman in it as at least a secondary lead.

I feel guilty that I like Sokka more than Katara, putting her in third in the 'favorite Avatar character' test. (But if people keep bitching about her, that will change.) (Actually, I don't even think that accurate, because I look at all the times I Katara does things I love, and if I did a point by point comparison, I think the scene in my icon, if nothing else, would nudge her ahead.)

In short: WORD. Wordy McWord.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I can get into something without a male, and something without a female...but without a female is a LOT harder.

Zuko is my favorite, Katara is my second favorite. Then Sokka. (and I ship nothing in that combination) But I feel no guilt over that...Zuko only wins because he lets me say "high strung, emotastic angstmuffin" and be proud of it. And you know how shallow and fond I am of that phrase.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

I can get into something without a male, and something without a female...but without a female is a LOT harder.

Same here.

Zuko only wins because he lets me say "high strung, emotastic angstmuffin" and be proud of it.

Plus, he's such a plot-moving force. I mean, he wants the Avatar, and he's going to do damn near anything in his power to get that, and instead of whining about about he's doing this for his mother, or he's going to win 'his own way' he's sneaking into Fire Nation fortresses and driving his ship through storms and sneaking into the North Pole.

[fa3ryg1rl.livejournal.com]

I like both male and female characters, but I can relate more with female characters, so I tend to like them a little better. One thing I can NOT stand is weak wimpy fainty female characters. Give me a female character who can take care of herself and whip any guy in a sword fight and I'm happy.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Personally, I get happy when they just aren't doormats, can think for themselves, and if they HAVE to be a damsel in distress, they're either give them hell while waiting to be rescued, or only behave because yes, they probably will be killed otherwise. Anything beyond that is a bonus.

But really, most good fiction has both males and females, and part of why it's good is because it has both.

[filmi-girl.livejournal.com]

I think the 'I hate reading about ladies' attitude is a product of a general pop culture that sees all things female as less worthy. So, we grow up thinking that women's problems are trivial or boring or not as worthwhile to read about then male buddy bonding on the battlefield.

I hate watching or reading things without a strong female character as lead or secondary lead. Otherwise, I have no character to identify with or provide me with a point of entry into the story. Strangely, I guess, I hate harem manga, but I love reverse harem manga, even though the ratio of male to female characters is opposite of what I would expect that I would like.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

"I think the 'I hate reading about ladies' attitude is a product of a general pop culture that sees all things female as less worthy. So, we grow up thinking that women's problems are trivial or boring or not as worthwhile to read about then male buddy bonding on the battlefield."

Which is an attitude that sets off a severe kneejerk reaction in me, because in the online fandom at least, it's the women encouraging the attitude.

[anime-heart.livejournal.com]

I think some female readers/fans find men (as characters) more interesting than women. Which I think is a quirk but not a terrible one; what I don't like is when they try to generalize it to "women are boring" or "I can't stand narratives which focus on a heroine" or blahblahblah whatever.

Some of that is about personality and background. I used to like to read more about men because I found them very mysterious, and having lots of sisters and female friends, felt that I knew enough of women in rl. Also, the types of female characters I encountered in fiction weren't very satisfying.

Now I've known my husband a long time I know how simple men really are, lol (no no no, they are just as complicated as women)

I always used to be searching in fiction for someone I could identify with who wasn't tragic or too girly or was going to live a life of abstinence because men liked her but didn't love her or who was super smart but somehow adorable because of her lack of feminine wiles (for reference, I would describe myself as quite girly, very smart, and not particularly sweet or nice, but not a bitch either, and perfectly happy being married and a mom--none of which seemed possible in the books I was reading in hs and college).

so um, back from the self-centered detour--what was I saying? I think it's a mistake, when it's a personal preference, to generalize it to gender politics and therefore I find it super-annoying when people do. OTOH I am a believer in the idea that "the personal is politic" but tend to interpret as "it's a good idea to examine your personal values in the light of your political values and vice versa and keep the distinction clear" rather than "all of your personal values must be politically correct!"

As for rants, I love them, rant away. I would rant more except it's tiring and I need my sleep.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I used to like to read more about men because I found them very mysterious, and having lots of sisters and female friends, felt that I knew enough of women in rl. Also, the types of female characters I encountered in fiction weren't very satisfying.


Oh yes, exactly. That is basically why my interest is more in male characters than in female.

Lately, the second part seems less of a problem though (love the women on Battlestar or Farscape etc).

Funny thing is, I don't generally need (or even want) a character I can identify with at all. My favorite narratives/characters are never that. My favorite books are either Lymond Chronicles or Remarque's Three Comrades and I have no identification with any characters in them, male or female. My fave shows are BSG and Farscape and I really have no character who is 'like me' at all in it and don't identify with anyone. Even for my dramas, I don't really identify with most anyone in my fave dramas at all...

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I rarely have a character I can identify with myself. I don't think I've seen a single drama with a character I identify with, and if they show up in anime and manga, it's usually a supporting male character type in shounen stuff.

The identification thing, though, is something I see more and more as an explanation for slash: you identify with one male and find another hot, so you slash.

(It really doesn't make much sense to me, though...it would seem that you'd want the one you like the best and the one you think is hottest with girls, because that's what you are, and makes more sense if there's any "putting in the character's place/connection" thing going on. For that matter, if I do identify with a guy, it's almost never also the one I find hottest...but I generally want the hot guy to figure it out already and go make out with his love interest and wish the one I identify with had some nice girl of his own, as he almost never gets paired off...but now that reasoning-and the fact that it makes no sense to me, no matter how much I may like and respect some of the people who use it-is what I almost always think of now when identification comes up.)

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

"I think some female readers/fans find men (as characters) more interesting than women. Which I think is a quirk but not a terrible one; what I don't like is when they try to generalize it to "women are boring" or "I can't stand narratives which focus on a heroine" or blahblahblah whatever."

The problem that I see is that most take "I find male characters more interesting" as being synonymous with "women are uninteresting" and "female narratives are boring" and then approach fiction only looking at the male, with the female as an accessory.

[irenak.livejournal.com]

I'll admit, the ratio of male to female characters doesn't really affect how much a story appeals to me - I never really had trouble relating to a male or female protagonist, so it became primarily about character types and relationships, rather than gender specifically.

However, that said, I definitely see where you're coming from: it's been very frustrating to see how hostile fandom can be toward female characters sometimes, even when their presence is minor (y halo thar, Supernatural). I suspect there is a bit of immaturity involved in it, just judging how I reacted to certain characters when I was fifteen or sixteen and how I react now. And part of it is probably, as you say, a sort of social indoctrination to view female characters as somehow less interesting than their male counterparts.

That said, some fault lies with the writers as well - some, especially in heavier male fandoms, don't always have a decent grasp on how to write women and, as a result, tend to alienate viewers from those characters. If you've read Henry Jenkins at all, he goes into that quite a bit, exploring the phenomenon of slash specifically and fanfic more generally when women appeared - in earlier media fandoms, at least - to gravitate more toward male characters rather than female ones and it was in part due to how poorly the latter were written.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

"I'll admit, the ratio of male to female characters doesn't really affect how much a story appeals to me - I never really had trouble relating to a male or female protagonist, so it became primarily about character types and relationships, rather than gender specifically."

The male/female ratio doesn't affect me much(I wouldn't read nearly as much shounen as I do otherwise) it's the approach by fans that the woman is in the way, less important, or an accessory, or that two males is automatically better than a male and a female. It's just a mindset that's so completely alien to my own that I can't begin to think of it.

And as near as I can tell, regardless of actual age, the Supernatural fandom is mostly a collection of teenagers crushing on the quarterback and throwing hissyfits anytime some girl dares look at him, or he talks to a girl, and then bullying her in the schoolyard after.

[fenrir-khan.livejournal.com]

Word to the nth degree.

I hate it when the female character is treated like an expandable entity, be it in fandom (where, it would seem, it is everyone's fantasy to kill off the main girl and have her replaced by an OC/Sue/random male character) or in the original work itself (oh, how many times have I rolled my eyes at an author's laughable disregard for their own female character... even more laughable as said authors often happen to be female themselves).

Let it be said that I'm not more partial to female characters than I am to male characters. However, there seems to be a trend that consists in idolizing everything that sports a penis and deeming every heroine a waste of space and it is sorta grating.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

"Let it be said that I'm not more partial to female characters than I am to male characters. However, there seems to be a trend that consists in idolizing everything that sports a penis and deeming every heroine a waste of space and it is sorta grating."

Exactly. There's this idea that females only exist to take up space, or be a token love interest. It's why the fics that have the guy running off always having adventures at the end while the female sits at home waiting really grate. First of all, most of the females who have that fic written about them wouldn't put up with that, and, in fact, spent the entire work going on adventures with them, but there's also an underlying "well, fine, she got the guy...BUT I DON'T CARE SO I'LL SAY SHE DID BUT STILL WRITE HIM WITHOUT HER BECAUSE SHE DOESN'T MATTER ANYWAY!!!"

[madame-parker.livejournal.com]

I've had an issue with this side of fandom since I pretty much got into my first fandom six years ago. It's something I really don't like and what makes it really shocking is the fact that most of the hate towards female characters comes from female fans.

On most days, I ignore it but on other days I get really pissed off, most of all if the character that is being bitched on happens to be someone I like.

I also have an issue with peoples needs to have an OTP almost from the get go of watching a tv show or anime. I'm not an OTP person, in most cases I happen to be a Gen person, who enjoys watching friendships more than people falling in love, I get bored with that, unless it's very well done. It's tiring how childish fandom can be, that's why I just lurk most of the time.

On another note, I've friended you, which I'm sure you noticed. :) I really enjoyed some of the posts you've been making.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I'm...a gen person who gets absolutely giddy when there's a canon pairing she likes, but doesn't need one. The only time the pairing bit (in canon) is an issue for me is if something about it strikes me as very, very wrong. I like relationships of all types, romantic, familial, etc. I really dislike fanon pairings because most require altering or sacrificing at least one canon relationship, and few things set me off more than taking a male who is canonically paired with a female and slashing him. (My general opinion on slash is that I'm fine with, but generally uninterested...but if canon says the guy is straight, the guy is straight.) Why most seem to think a relationship has to be romantic to be interesting or everything has to have a sexual undertone is something I'll never get.

I like OTPs and get very attached to them...if they're canon and something I really like. Otherwise, I just don't worry about it. Most OTPs for me are "yes, you're cute/odd/work for me...now, about that swordfight..."

I generally try to just lurk on the edges of fandom, but then I see character bashing or relationship(of any kind) trashing, and I lose it.