And people wonder why I let my comics languish and focus on manga?

[meganbmoore]

 This list of the "50 Greatest Comic Book Characters"?  Is a load of bull.

Note what there's a distinct lack of.  Note that, of the two most recognizable ones, the entries are basically "she's a good character because she looks good in lingerie" and "actually, she isn't a good character, but we're supposed to include her."  And half of it?  Isn't based on quality, but on name recognition.  Actually, more than half.  So many better characters out there.  For that matter, the top 2?  One's sidekicks and rivals are better characrers, and the other's wife ad parents are more interesting.  But they're Icons.  Forget whether they're actually good characters or have been remotely original, interesting, or even well written in decades, a massive chunk of them are Icons, and so must be the greatest.

And if they were going the iconic route, where the *bleep* is Captain America?  Even discounting the fact that he's had better writing and characterization in the last few years than some of those characters can dream of, he was a better character than a lot of them even when I didn't care about him.  ETA:  My bad, #21.  Should be ranked higher than most of the ones above him, though.

*goes off to be grumpy*

Comments

[ryanitenebrae.livejournal.com]

Okay, yeah, 6 out of 50 is pretty bad, and there are many better female characters they could have included. Still, four out of those six seem to be very solid characters, to me..I know Death is, and clearly, Frost and Wonder Woman(who are, for the record, characters I highly dislike), are there out of obligation due to name recognition.

And she may be recent, but personally, I think Gertrude Yorkes should be on there, for being the first superheroine who was overweight, as well as the first who wore glasses.

[keelieinblack.livejournal.com]

Captain America's in at #21, isn't he?

Seriously, though, that list is all kinds of annoying. Even if they stuck with the strictly 'iconic' characters...no Batgirl/Barbara Gordon? No Catwoman? No Jean Grey? J. Jonah Jameson makes the list, but Mary Jane doesn't? And, on a totally different tack, why did they decide to put Apollo and Midnighter in to celebrate "comics’ most significant out-and-proud couple"--and then use a picture of Midnighter punching Apollo?

I've been having fun tiptoeing my way back into mainstream comics recently, but stuff like this is why they'll never have me as a regular reader/buyer again. Gaaaaaah.

[(Anonymous)]

You realize of course that the fact that it's a list at all should be all that you need to know to run for the hills and not bother with it, yes? No matter who makes the list you'll always find something to disagree with ;) Some more than others, but that's not the point...

Also, by linking to it you've given the author exactly what he/she is looking for: more exposure.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Frost and Wonder Woman (and many others) are far worthier than at least half the list, even if it's clwar they're only there out of name recognition, just like over half the list.

Half of it is name recognition, the other half "Oh! He's cool! Who cares about quality beyond that!"

[kingcrankycat.livejournal.com]

^ me

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

My bad. I was so blinded by the rest of the crap that I missed him. Based even on their criteria, he should be far higher. And every character you listed in more deserving than a lot of those they listed. The Midnighter/Apollo was bad for me for the same reason. What, they aren't worthy of being separate entities? They're only good because they're gay?

See, the anime/manga fandom is just as bad, but it doesn't affect my enjoyment as a consumer. Because that's the fandom. Most of the time, the creators are just fine. With mainstream comics, the creators are as bad, or worse.

[annwyd.livejournal.com]

Augh, that list. On the one hand, they put John Constantine right after Superman and Batman! Woo! But then...yeah. The passive-aggressive why-is-she-so-popular on Death's entry; the including Cerberus and praising Dave Sim without even a token mention of his batshit misogyny; ugh.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I guessed. (Was assuming it was you earlier with SCC, too.)

I just keep hoping that one day, I'll be linked to or stumble across something besides a general article that won't depress me in regards to the genre.

[woodburner.livejournal.com]

The lack of female characters is ridiculous. The fact that there's not a single woman in the top ten is telling.

I am also annoyed that they included a Japanese character - because if they hadn't, I would have just assumed the list was specifically for western comic book characters (seeing as that's what "comic" usually refers to,) but the fact that they did include one, and only one, seems to imply the superior importance of western comics.

[rekallthegreat.livejournal.com]

Wow that list is made of fail. I really don't have much else to say beyond that. There was what? 6 girls out of 50 characters?

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yeah...they were either there because of brainwashed fanboy-ing, or because they thought they should be. But there was nothing there about quality or meaning. I mean, I get including Superman and Batman because of influence, but both are 100% name, not characters, and have been that way for years. (Read: the 16 I've been reading comics.) And some of the others are only a little better. The reason it gets to me more than the anime/manga fandom doing the same thing (in general principle) is that here, the creators are the same, or worse.

[ryanitenebrae.livejournal.com]

They are far worthier than many on this list, I agree. I still dislike them, or at least, mostly dislike them. Name recognition is really the only reason Superman would be at number one, while he's such a flat, basic character with no real personality that feeds into wish fulfillment most of the time.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yup. And they clearly didn't think they were really worthy, just that they should include them. (And the ones I know? Vastly worthier than a lot of the list. As are a host of other characters of both genders.)

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Which one was that? Astro Boy? (I think he was there?) I think he was there because he was published (I believe) as a regular US comic, so they probably just assume he's a mainstream comics character.

[paperclipchains.livejournal.com]

Captain America's in there... V isn't, though, sadly.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Wonder Woman, as a character and mythos(as written by George Perez, Phil Jiminez, Greg Rucka and Gail Simone...most of the rest are too busy being scared of her to do her justice) is, MO, one of the best things in comics (and when i say Wonder Woman, i'm usually referring to all 3 characters to use the name...if I mean one as an individual, I'll usually use her name.)

Superman would warrant a place for influence, just like Batman, but neither should be anywhere near the top.

[woodburner.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Astro Boy. I doubt they don't realize he was created in Japan - most western comics fanboys I've run into at least know of Osamu Tezuka, even if they're not very familiar with other Japanese comics.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I missed Cap because of all the bad entries (and the fact that it wasn't getting any better as I got closer to the single-digit entries...I started at #50) and the "actually, she sucks, but we think we're supposed to include her" WW entry.

V is worthier than many on the list.

[droiche.livejournal.com]

Yah. I expected there would be a lack of female comics characters. And, of course, I expected Superman and Batman would be exactly #1 and #2 (although Spiderman being 5th was a bit surprising). Can we say, "Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh!"?

There were two or three Japanese characters which I agree did throw off the assumption that this would be a list of purely Western comics.

I'm also in agreement that snarky questioning of Death's popularity is irritating. She's cute as hell, but she's also a far more developed character than these blokes give her credit for.

I mildly disappointed (but not really surprised) that The Crow and Ghostrider weren't included.

Meh. What can we expect from popularity lists like this one? *shrug*

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yeah...they're clearly...bitter...about having to acknowledge females at all beyond how they look in lingerie.

Most of their list? First names that came to their hads, with most of the rest "OMG I THOUGHT HE WAS SO COOL WHEN I WAS TWELVE!"

I keep hoping to click on something that will inspire me to catch up with comics...

[droiche.livejournal.com]

Take my advice. Ignore popularity lists and critics and choose Western comics the same way you choose Eastern comics - by judging them yourself. :)

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

The thing is that, with eastern comics, the wank and stupidity is almost always purely on the part of the fans. If the creators do it, I don't know about it. With western comics, the creators are behind as much or more wank.

[logically.livejournal.com]

Not having Wonder Woman in the top 10 is just ridiculous. And I'm personally biased, but I'd loved to have seen any of the X-men females (not including Emma Frost -.-) on the list. Anywhere.

*sigh*

I have to disagree with Batman, though. Since he's a personal favorite, I'm glad to see him at #2. Also was glad to see Astroboy on the list, even as low as it was...

The list is ridiculous, but knowing who the writers and owners in the business, it's completely dominated by male nerds. Reflects in their list, certainly,at least..

[ryanitenebrae.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'd like to do two things, here: Apologize, and clarify.

Apologize, because I made a blanket statement using too harsh of a sentiment, and clarify, because my statement was referring primarily to the original Wonder Woman, from the 40s to the 60s, and not the same portrayal that you are referring to. Honestly, the bondage undertones of the Golden and Silver age Wonder Woman just simply creep me out. However, clearly, I need to read some of the Wonder Woman comics from the 80s - 2000s.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

The problem is that most writers these days are fanboys who get to make their fanfic canon. Some is really good, a lot...isn't. I don't object to Batman (or sUperman) on the list, but they're blatantly high on the list only because of their names.

[logically.livejournal.com]

Well, I did laugh a little when they mentioned that Wonder Woman's struggle. The demotions and promotions are true--they even admitted that it would take a female team to probably break the cycle.

...that would be so fantastic, now that I think about it.


Arguably, Batman and Superman earned the icon status, though. They have the most about of utter crap each, but have forged their way into being legends. Or so I think.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Well, in all honesty, I think that most people just don't realize that that WW hasn't been around in over 20 years. I recommend starting with Greg Rucka's Hiketeia OGN. It isn't the start of the continuity(it's actually well into it) but it's very standalone, avoids spoilers except for her social status at the time, and is very focused on her role as a role model for girls (in the DC Universe) and how she interprets it, as well as the myths and belief systems she comes from. It was the first thing to make me look at the character beyond the mass misconceptions most have about her (which led to my discovering lots of cool DC and other comic book things.) After that, go back and find the George Perez trades, and if you can, the part of his run that wasn't collected (they only collected what he wrote and drew...after #25, he only drew) which is through about #50. Skip ahead to the Artemis trades pencilled by Deodato. They actually aren't that great, and portray Hippolyta horribly, but they're important because they establish the relationship between Diana and Artemis(not the goddess) and set up a lot of future dynamics. Some people have problems with Phil Jiminez's run, but I love it as an intentional mirror of Perez's run. Perez was doing "mythology enters the modern world" while Jiminez did "the modern world meets mythology," and approaches similar situations with Diana being older and wiser than she was in Perez's run. Walt Simonson's arc was also pretty decent, but not a big deal either way. Rucka's run was really acclaimed, though (outside of Hiketeia) is actually my least favorite of the 4 really good runs. It's very politically driven, and he does thatwell, he just has a habit of getting a series and getting rid of all the supporting cast and creating new ones. Gail Simone's run (the current one that I hope stays for a long time) has elements of all three, especially the history and mythology in the modern world, but from a distinctly feminist (but not radfem) perspective. She does tend to make Diana's voice a little too modern for my taste, but not enough to affect my enjoyment.

(Sadly, a lot of what's between these runs is by people who take the property as a joke and/or are clearly threatened by her as anything but the Moulton version, but I focus on the good.)

*never give me an opportunity to pimp out WW, I'll abud the opening shamelessly*

[droiche.livejournal.com]

I'm sure Eastern comics creators are just as guilty of it. We just don't notice it because we gloss it over as just being a "foreign thing". Some of the creators' wank is also probably lost in translation.

Perhaps you're looking at the wrong comics? I avoid the hugely popular ones for the same reason I avoid anything that's hugely popular - such things are always aimed at the lowest common denominator. It might take you longer to find Western comics that you like because the ones that fit your personal tastes are somewhat obscure.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

The thing about WW writers is that the current writer and the last one are women. Jodi Piccoult ensured that I will never buy one of her books by making it clear she knew nothing about the last few decades of the character and thought it was a cakewalk and not worth her full attention, but Gail Simone's run (the current one) is great, even if she makes Diana's voice a little modern for my tastes.

I think the earning the iconic status (though, unlike WW, who has earned it the last 20 years, they've mostly given no reason they should keep it, save for name recognition) earns them a place in the top 50, but not in the top 2.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Oh, I have plenty I like and even love. I just keep making the mistake of reading what the people behind the page have to say. It's why I'm glad there's a nice, fat language barrier between me and foreign entertainment that hasn't been filtered. Most of the hugely popular stuff causes me despair, but some (like Captain America, though it mostly lurks on the edges of "hugely popular" does deserve it.) I think the only crossover that hasn't made me mad in recent years is Annihilation, which has essentially spread into bringing back Marvel's space titles.

[ryanitenebrae.livejournal.com]

^^ Thank you. I'll definitely read these. I'm sorry, I guess I am steal dealing with some misconceptions and generalizations around certain characters, especially since I've only been into comics for a few months now. I really am sorry.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Well, I've been so into the "good" WW the last 6-7 years that I sometimes forget most don't really realize she exists, and tend to overreact, so I should probably apologize too.

What comics have you been reading?

[droiche.livejournal.com]

Ah. Yes. The language barrier is a good way to protect yourself from the disappointment you'll get in peeking behind the curtain. :)

[logically.livejournal.com]

I might have to pick up the current Simone WW. I gave up on her (WW) long ago, admittedly. As I did most of the comic world. :/

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

If you scroll up the comments a bit THERE IS A MASS BLOCK OF MY WW RECS! Which boils down to "read Perez, Jiminez, Rucka(esp Hiketeia) and Simone. Ignore everything else. Except Deodato's Artemis trades. Which aren't really good, but Artemis and her arc are major and should be included."

[ryanitenebrae.livejournal.com]

Let's see..so far, I've read five trades of Runaways, four of Sandman, two issues of Fables, the first third of Dark Knight Returns, the first pocket collection of Strangers in Paradise, the first trade of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, and the hardcover release of Castle Waiting. The next on the list is V for Vendetta. I'm mostly going down a list of recommendations a comic-loving friend of mine gave me, partially to acclimate myself to comics in general, before diving in on my own. ^^;;

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Ah. Well, if you decide you want more (you're getting close to where Runaways and I parted ways, sadly) let me know. I have 16 years worth of recs.

[logically.livejournal.com]

I HAVE FOUND THE TEXT BLOCK. And will utilize it. I was looking for some new entertainment reading anyhow. ♥

[ryanitenebrae.livejournal.com]

I, uh, know what happens in the next trade of Runaways, which is why it's been sitting ontop of my bookshelf for three months. I'm not sure I can handle it, since I'm very attached to her.. That sounds weird, but Gert makes the series for me.

I would honestly love some recs, but I can also look at some of the comic reviews here on the LJ, too. ^^ I was actually going to do so, tomorrow evening. Really, I'd love them, but I want to save you from having to do a long rec-post.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Actually, I was still on board after that, despite being depressed. It's when the creative change takes place that I get lost.

Short version(limiting myself to things I know can be acquired as trades fairly easily):

Superhero comics: WW is covered, Ed Brubaker's Captain America, the recent Manhunter series, Gail Simone's Birds of Prey (if they're still available, also Chuck Dixon's BoP...only a bit was collected, but it's good, and should be read keeping in mind that, for his leads, he deliberately chose 2 female characters best known then for having been tortured and traumatized to further the angst and motivate their male counteparts, and made them a badass fighting team equal to the males...theres 2 BoP trades from that run, and a crossover trade under the Nightwing title) and Marvel's Annihilation events and Cable/Deadpool.

Non-mainstream: Fables you're reading, but I alsorec Jack of Fables. Jack alone is irritating, but he suffers for it, and there's one issue that's fairy tale meta on Princess Tutu levels. Also Usagi Yojimbo and, even though it was never finished, Xenozoic Tales. And then the rest of Castle Waiting, of course. I'm very fond of Top Cow's Witchblade/Darkness/Magdalena stuff, but it can be uneven and overly T&A centric, but I love the world and mythology and characters.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

Death is pretty damn awesome, and for reasons beyond appearance (which isn't always solid).

*reads writeup* Uh . . . it feels like they had to talk themselves into including her.

Where's Agatha Heterodyne?

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

They had to talk themselves into including anything female. And then sulked about it.

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

Judge Dredd in the top 10, though, seriously? I think their non-Marvel/DC choices are much better than their Marvel/DC choices overall. Captain Haddock! Usagi! Obelix!

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

Yeah, and they knew where Asterix and Tintin came from.

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

I do like The AV Club's comics reviews.

[themachinehead.livejournal.com]

It's hard to get too worked up about something so hilariously poor. I mean, Judge Dredd is the #7 comic character OF ALL TIME. Silver Surfer? Thor? Nightwing? All pale before the glory of Judge Dredd.

As far as the women being excluded, Chris Claremont must be rolling over in his grave! I mean, I'll admit X3 was a travesty, but Jean Grey deserves a spot just for the Phoenix arcs (and Emma Frost is one of the seven they include? Ugh), while Storm and Rogue are some of the most iconic female heroes Marvel has. Scarlet Witch was a great character who has gotten mainstream attention by being in the middle of two mediocre "events," even if she was the villain.

And God, what about Oracle? From the golden age legacy to the Alan Moore connection to the fact that she is an independent and flawed character, you'd think for sure she'd be on the list, even if they spent half of it talking about how fat Alicia Silverstone looked in Batman.

As far as independent characters, where's Prometha? They include an obscure Alan Moore female character, but leave out the character that single-handedly brought Armageddon to the ABC universe? Plus, Promethea was awesome.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

All those you mention (of both genders) and more are more worthy of being included that a lot of those that were. I'm actually more annoyed at how they're clearly bitter about having to acknowledge females exist in comics than I am by how few there are.