I honestly don't think I've ever come across that before in fandom. Different experiences, I guess.
And... I think we're just not communicating very well, because that's not what I'm saying about fantasy worlds and sexism at all. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think that not writing sexists worlds is necessarily feminist, because many authors do it wrong. If you just get rid of most of the things you perceive as sexism, but otherwise make it exactly like sixteenth century England, then it can create the strange impression that sixteenth century women couldn't really be badass within the frame that they lived in. It certainly can be done right. I've read it done right, at times. But I don't like how many writers seem to think they can just wave their hands and say, "I have powerful women! I have warrior women! Pay no attention to the fact that I'm still using some very skeevy sexist tropes." Robert Jordan and David Eddings come to mind.
On the other hand, I don't think that writing a sexist culture without overtly attacking it isn't necessarily sexist itself. I think that if you write a sexist culture, but your female characters are realistically human, and realistically limited or hurt by that culture, it can be feminist. I don't think Naruto is feminist, personally. I don't think that Kishimoto ever set out to make a statement about gender imbalances. I do think it's pretty likely that he lives in a sexist world, and he internalized sexist norms, and he's rather faithfully recreating them within his own world. I think what's interesting is that his recreation is faithful enough that it included how that sexism undermines girls who experienced it, and self-aware enough that it's not presented as a natural order. Which is where the idea that a feminist reading is possible comes from.
I'm sorry if I'm not explaining this clearly for you, but I'm not sure I can think of another way to break it down right now. I'm also already fairly aware that my feminist lens isn't always in line with other people's, so I don't expect you to agree. I'm just putting forth an alternate reading.
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branchandroot
no subject
Date: 2009-03-26 06:28 am (UTC)And... I think we're just not communicating very well, because that's not what I'm saying about fantasy worlds and sexism at all. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think that not writing sexists worlds is necessarily feminist, because many authors do it wrong. If you just get rid of most of the things you perceive as sexism, but otherwise make it exactly like sixteenth century England, then it can create the strange impression that sixteenth century women couldn't really be badass within the frame that they lived in. It certainly can be done right. I've read it done right, at times. But I don't like how many writers seem to think they can just wave their hands and say, "I have powerful women! I have warrior women! Pay no attention to the fact that I'm still using some very skeevy sexist tropes." Robert Jordan and David Eddings come to mind.
On the other hand, I don't think that writing a sexist culture without overtly attacking it isn't necessarily sexist itself. I think that if you write a sexist culture, but your female characters are realistically human, and realistically limited or hurt by that culture, it can be feminist. I don't think Naruto is feminist, personally. I don't think that Kishimoto ever set out to make a statement about gender imbalances. I do think it's pretty likely that he lives in a sexist world, and he internalized sexist norms, and he's rather faithfully recreating them within his own world. I think what's interesting is that his recreation is faithful enough that it included how that sexism undermines girls who experienced it, and self-aware enough that it's not presented as a natural order. Which is where the idea that a feminist reading is possible comes from.
I'm sorry if I'm not explaining this clearly for you, but I'm not sure I can think of another way to break it down right now. I'm also already fairly aware that my feminist lens isn't always in line with other people's, so I don't expect you to agree. I'm just putting forth an alternate reading.