People, I don't like it when you walk up and touch my HAIR! Much less anything else.

[meganbmoore]

So, making the rounds today is the news that a group of people had a gropefest at a con, and wants to make this a regular thing at conventions.

Reactions to this are all over the place. rachelmanijamentions a few of them here.

Now...ok, if people want to engage in consentual groping, that's fine with me.  To each their own.  My opinion on that is about like my opinion on PDA with any couple:  I have no problems with couples of any gender combination kissing in front of me.  Why would I?  But when you move past the kissing to the fondling and/or groping, I'd really just as soon you do it in private and not in front of me, ok?  (And yes, for all that I will often go "would you just shut up and heva sex already!" and similar things to fictional pairings, I really would usually rather they do it off screen/page, and yes, I really am being honest when I say I usually skim/skip those parts of romance novels.)

The problem I really have, there, is the idea that it's freeing or liberating or something to have a complete stranger walk up and grope you.  I can say from plenty of personal experience that NO, IT IS NOT FREEING OR LIBERATING OR REALLY ANYTHING OVERLY PLEASANT AT ALL WHEN A COMPLETE STRANGER OR CASUAL ACQUAINTANCE WALKS UP AND STROKES A PART OF YOUR BODY!

For those of you who don't know, I have very long hair.  My hair apparently has magnets in it, as anytime it's past my shoulders(currently waist length) people tend to walk up and stroke it.  The last time it was shoulder length was when I was 18.  Before that it was almost elbow length.  I like my hair.  I like having long hair.  I am lazy and so rarely do anything with it beyond brush it out.  My hair is NOT a part of the public domain, yet people like to walk up and stroke it.  Some of you may recal a few months ago, when the apt. manager's mother got up from the office an came around to stroke my hair.

Now, the feeling isn't entirely unpleasant, but if you aren't my mother, grandmother, a little old lady or under the age of ten, I DO NOT WANT YOU TOUCHING AND STROKING MY HAIR WITHOUT PERMISSION!  The fact that I have long and loose hair does NOT make it a part of the public domain.  "You have pretty hair" is a perfectly acceptable way of admiring my hair that does not invade my personal space and involve touching without permission.

Similarly, if you want to tell me I'm a beautiful person, just say it.  Being a stranger and walking up to me and touching my breasts and walking off is most definately NOT going to give me the feeling that you think I'm a beautiful person and that you admire me even if you don't know me.  It's going to make me think you're a pervert who gets his jollies with public molestation.  If I see you walking around and groping women, I'm not going to think you're expressing your admiration, I'm going tot hink you get a thrill with getting away with doing the forbidden in public and getting away with it.

Also, I feel compelled to point out that it's called "The Open-Source Boob Project."  It's supposed to be for men AND women, but I don't see a movement for men to wear buttons indicating whether or not they want complete strangers to walk up and grab their crotches in public, and then walk off.  Mind you, I want to see it about as much as I do the other.  But the onesidedness in what's being endorsed there pretty much kills the argument that it's not about reducing women to being a pair of breasts that are there for enjoyment.

ETA:  He has editted the post with a clarification that has to be seen to be believed, and all the comments have magically disappeared.

Also, the_red_shoeshas a great post with many good links on the subject here.  Go read.

Comments

[lesbiassparrow.livejournal.com]

Reading his post and his comments to it all I can think is that is basically boils down to:

1. Women are mean
2. I should not have to talk to the mean women before I can touch their breasts. Because that's actual effort.
3. But my fear of rejection in no way means that I should not also get to reject the mean women who don't have breasts worthy of my touch
4. If you don't agree with this you are repressed. Probably because you are mean.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yup, pretty much. Also "since women are mean, they should make their bodies available for my pleasure without question or reservation. They'd only say no if I asked."

I lacked the strength to read the comments. Maybe I should.

(Are you home from your trip? Did you have fun? Did you traumatize any academics?)

[lesbiassparrow.livejournal.com]

The comments have been 'accidentally' deleted.

I'm back but in the middle of marking. I did not traumatize anyone, academic or non-academic. :) (Well, as far as I know.)

[(Anonymous)]

today has been an ongoing fight against human idiocy, but that... wow. I don't think that can be beat.

I have no words for it.

[kingcrankycat.livejournal.com]

^ me

[forgottenpolish.livejournal.com]

I feel scared to go to the Con I am going to on Thursday. ........

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

That was kind of my reaction(though my con isn't for several weeks yet.)

[fivil.livejournal.com]

....OKAY THEN.

I'm a stranger to cons and mildly freaked out by them - heard way too many freaky geek stories from cons, I guess. But this is just, yeah, not on.

He just edited the post, btw, basically confessing to being a total jerk.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I saw. Except, you know, according to him, he isn't. He's just deeply, deeply misunderstood and women's bodies should only be in the public domain if they aren't paranoid and repressed. I mean, if they don't object.

I've always flipflopped between "wanna go" and "nnnooo...sound to scary" on cons, but will be going to A-Kon this year.

[fivil.livejournal.com]

The proposition reminds me of a few weeks back when I got drunk with some male friends and returning from the bar, one of them jokily asked if he could slap my ass (it'd been a topic of conversation earlier for whatever reason) and I laughed and said 'sure'. Of course there is a huuuuge difference because a) it was mostly a joke and not genuine groping and b) I trusted both of these guys fully and we were good friends. In that kind of scenario (usually with alcohol!) these kinds of things are fine. Extending them to include a huge crowd of con-goers? Is just wtf. I'm okay with being propositioned like that by friends, but strangers, I don't even want to be asked the question.

It just represents the kind of people that cons so often contain and it's gross but also sad as hell.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

Oh, wait, is A-Kon your first con? A-Kon is fun! Plus you will be with friends.

I will be wearing this outfit. If anyone gropes, I will punch them and then press charges.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's my first, not counting when there were a few "strip of tables" comic cons here when I was 14-17 and accompanied with a "if you touch, you will die" father and a younger brother who A) looks nothing like me and B) has looked older than he is since he was 12, leading to more "is that your boyfriend/girlfriend?" convos than either of us cares to remember.

My roommate mentioned martial arts in the same post where I learned of this. It comforted me.

From what I've heard, A-Kon is: A) Fun B) Less in sane than others and C) Not well planned.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

I think it will be fine and fun. Also, telophase is adept at the Stare of D00M, and I would be delighted to help you beat down (physically or verbally) anyone who bothers you (physically or verbally.) But I don't think anyone will.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Oh, verbally I do just fine at. :)

It's just the elbows and not being able to see things over the sea of heads and the people not noticing people shorter than them and the short=pushover that gives me problems. (Oh Rukia, how I feel your pain...)

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

I'm 5'0". I feel her pain too.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Wow, I'm actually taller than. By about an inch...

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

OH MY POOR HEART! This is one of the cases I am really happy that Mr.Alexander doesn't read the Internet. I am just having a flashback of myself 3 years ago and I think if I heard about anything of the kind at that time I would have been scarred for life. Now all I can do is OMPH!OMPH! I don't want to go on any fannish conventions ever. :D I know I am exaggerating. But I find that from my POV it is a very weird thing to do..

Now, the feeling isn't entirely unpleasant, but if you aren't my mother, grandmother, a little old lady or under the age of ten, I DO NOT WANT YOU TOUCHING AND STROKING MY HAIR WITHOUT PERMISSION!

This must be unpleasant if this happens all the time! I am so sorry! We had similar experience in Russia last year with Sasha. And I found it uncomfortable. But to be fair people were mostly going "Oh! Your girl is so incredibly beautiful" ALL THE TIME (I mean! A security guard in Sheremetievo airport said it!) . But to be honest I found it quite uncomfortable even to hear something like this from complete strangers. Good job that a half of the time Sasha didn't understand what they are talking about.

The funny thing is that no-one seems to say these things here in the UK, people are much more reserved..

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

It's not an all the time thing, but it's often enough for me to say it's not uncommon.

And yeah, you hear things like this about conventions ALL THE TIME and they just make the whole thing sound so...unpleasant.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I am a very touchy-feely person in general (though I won't do that until I know the person doesn't mind) and love giving and receving physical affection.

However, that does NOT mean groping. In public. From someone I do not know.

Ugh.

SICK.

That is why I'd never go to a con, sounds much too bizarre...

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I'm going to my first ever con in...6 weeks? 5? This really wasn't something I needed to hear about...

I've never really been big on being touched, probably because people have been doing it without permission my whole life. But I mean...there's a huge difference between tapping on a shoulder to get a person's attention and hugging a friend(even if it's an online or other-type-of-correspondence friend you're meeting in person for the first time) and just walking up and TOUCHING someone, or stroking a part of them.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

There have been groping scandals at cons, but, well, they were scandals. Cons are not supposed to be gropefests; unfortunately, people attend them, and some people are assholes.

[chomiji]

As a result of this whole fracas, I've snapped at someone who turned out to be a Real Published SF Author. >Eeeek!< I'm usually so mild-mannered ... there goes my reputation.

>sigh<

We seem to be conversing in a more civil fashion now, but I feel icky and sweaty. I loathe confrontations. And to me, that's a lot of what this is about - intellectual but socially tone-deaf guys who have decided that it's OK to force confrontations on women, knowing that most women would rather cave than make a scene.

(And BTW - don't touch the boobs. Mine or my daughter's. I hit hard ... .)

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

(Hey, I posted on one of her books earlier this month...weird...)

Of course, now you have me curious about what was said, but I suspect I'm better off not knowing.

But yeah, it's basically some guys who think they found a way to go "hee...boobies" and claim it's about being open and empowering. And, of course, it just has be thinking about all the anime and manga where there's groping and/or skirt lifting without permission where we smile and shake our head, and/or go "well, he's and idiot and needs to be punched, but I guess we know who he likes, now..." (And, honestly, the last year or so, I've noticed how much I let guys in anime and manga get away with that I don't in other forms of fiction, much less in real life.)

You know, until today, I used to have an unspoken "you wouldn't walk up and touch my breasts/butt without permission, how is my hair ok?" opinion, but now I know that there are those who really do think it's ok to do that without permission.

[chomiji]

There's manga, and then there's real life.

And Kyo would never think of trying to justify it with lofty verbiage, like this jerkoff was doing - he'd say something like, "I felt like it."

I'll have to say that the main context I have for this is the SCA, not cons. I never ran into this at cons when I was younger, and now I'm old enough and stern-enough-looking to send the dirty-minded little dweebs running with a glance. In the SCA, there are rules of engagement - but I still felt pressured. And what the jerkoff was talking about was more aggressive and less mannered than SCA institutionalized flirting games.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

There's also the fact that Kyo(and the slew of others I'm thinking of) reacts Very Badly when others go touching their girlies. They're also very clearly portrayed as mentally 5 in certain areas, as well as having some monomania going for them.

Ferret-guy was pretty much saying that people's bodies should be in the public domain so that no one has to bother with actual adult, human interactions or personal boundaries, and there was the blatant implication that not "opting-in" meant that you were anti-social and repressed. Fiction doesn't really endorse that...authors have the brains to realize it wouldn't sale.

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

Fiction doesn't really endorse that...authors have the brains to realize it wouldn't sale.

You haven't read much Heinlein, have you?

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Excellent point, and probably a reason i can't read his stuff. I don't exactly hear anything good about the movies based on his stuff, either.

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

*hugs* Well, FWIW, I've popped in on EBear's journal off and on over the years (in spite of still never having read any of her books), and she's always struck me as being a fairly reasonable-minded sort. I really, really don't think she has you marked off on any "snarky to Real Authors" Bad Reputation list or anything. ;)

(The original Boob Project poster, OTOH...bleah, I also used to see a fair bit of his stuff by way of friends-of-friends, and never really cared for it then either. Even when he was writing something nominally making fun of himself, there was just this aura of smugness and look-at-me, aren't-I-funny? that just rubbed me wrong...come to think of it, it's sort of similar to the vibe that sets my teeth on edge with Weingarten. It's not just the playing with gender stereotypes, hurr hurr men and women are sure different schtick that both do -- Dave Barry does that too, and from him I find it funny...maybe it's that Barry tends to exaggerate more to the point of clear absurdity while the others feel a bit more ha-ha-only-serious, and has more of a "Hi, I'm really twelve" feel to me.)

[chomiji]

The funny thing is, Weingarten can be a very effective, compassionate writer, especially when he lets himself go serious (as he did with the Pulitzer-winning article). But I think that always being the funny kid in class has encouraged him because he gets attention he enjoys that way. (I really do miss Dave Barry, though.)

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the pieces where he isn't trying to be funny, like the Great Zucchini profile, work a lot better for me than his humor columns. The only article of his I ever seriously *liked* is the one where he went to Savoonga, AK, and that worked so well IMO because it shook him out of his usual smugly cozy little Beltway niche; he admits right out that the idea started as a goofy idea to just visit a distant town with a funny name for yucks, but that all got wiped away when he got there and found himself "clueless in an alien culture". I'd like him much, much better if he wrote more stuff like that and less stuff like that condescending Joshua Bell experiment or his Sunday humor columns.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

You're not the first, is all I can say.

[chomiji]

I'm tempted to ask whether you mean "not the first" to have snapped at a published author or whether you mean her in particular, but I'm probably better off leaving it lie ... . I do feel like apologizing for helping make a mess all over your LJ.

[rachelmanija.livejournal.com]

Both, actually. Don't worry about it. Other people having the argument saves me from having to do it all myself.

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

I have the perfect t-shirt (http://www.cafepress.com/r_a_n/1696004) for you...

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Indeed. Though about $10 more than I ever pay for shirts...

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

There's always DIY with fabric markers, of course! But as yet another person who's been subject to lots of unasked hair-touchy since childhood, I couldn't help but squeal in delight when I first saw those.

[madame-manga.livejournal.com]

....

Why does this ring so loudly of so many aggressively clueless young males I've encountered in fan/con/gaming environments? The ones who nurse long-term simmering resentments against all women because the pretty ones aren't interested in satisfying the urges of every random pimply dick on legs with an entitlement complex? Holy fucking dirtballs, Robin. This is, like, the DEFINITION of a hostile environment, and I know darn well that males of this stripe will deny it until their pudgy faces turn purple and pull out every six-bit word they know in service of their "progressive social theories". I've heard them do it, over and over. I've had them personally insult me in public for making it clear that I was not available for the asking just because I was a female presenting herself in a fannish environment without wearing plate mail.

For the record, the man of the house is a lifelong fan/con/gamer type. And stood out in the crowd for NOT BEING A CREEP and giving a great deal of thought and care to how he approached women so as not to give offense. I had to practically tackle him to get the message across.

God, do I ID with the long-hair-as-public-domain problem. I've worn mine clipped up in public for quite some time now. :P

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Aside from the con/gamer type, your husband sounds like my brother(oh, the young female hearts broken in high school...)

I really should do more about keeping my hair up than I do, but...it's just so much hassle...

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

Heh, funny how mileage varies...for me it's pretty much hassle-free and nearly reflexive just to shove my hair back into a barrette or pin it up in a twist, but leaving it loose for anything but the most sedentary indoor activities is a constant headache of hair flying into my eyes and mouth, snarling on glasses or jewelry, and generally just tying itself into knots if there's so much as a light breeze. Part of why I like to keep mine long is that it's so much easier for me to keep it under control when it's of a length where I can catch all of it at once in a clip or such -- the few times it's been layered or cut into bangs or shorter than shoulder-length, it just drove me nuts because all those shorter bits just would not stay confined.

[madame-manga.livejournal.com]

That's exactly why mine is long (well, one reason why!) I hate having hair flopping in my face, and with it all one length I can twist it up and clip with a nice big Ficcare barrette or something on that order, and have it all out of the way in sixty seconds. This is especially handy right now, because the extreme wispy ends recently reached mid-calf. There is no way in heaven I can wear it down without running serious risks. Add sticky fingers to the prospect of ripping my scalp off in a car door, and I have an excellent incentive to invest in lots of interesting hair toys. :D

[chomiji]

>> ... the extreme wispy ends recently reached mid-calf <<

Color me impressed. At 16, I had waist-length hair, and it was a pain, and I kept it confined in a long braid most of the time. Now I hardly have hair, but that means it's a lot less work to color the grey ... .

[wistfulmemory.livejournal.com]

I am very touch sensitive, so I really don't like people randomly coming up and touching me. Thankfully, most people seem to be able to sense that I don't like being touched, so I don't have to deal with that too often. And, if I am touched when I don't expect it, my reflexes kick in, and I tend to smack away the hand without even realizing I'm doing that.

I also have very long hair (it's currently past my bottom), and like you, I don't do a lot with it. I usually pull half of it back with a clip so it's out of my way. I get a lot of comments on it, and I now have to deal with my elementary school students randomly touching it and trying to play with it while I'm trying to do something with them in class. When it gets bad, I wrap my hair around my neck like a scarf, which amazes my students and allows us to move on with the lesson.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Honestly, most adults seem to get that if it's attached to a person's body, it isn't to be touched without permission, and that you just don't randomly touch people unless you know it's ok. Unfortunately, there are enough out there that DO think its ok for it to be a problem.

[re-weird.livejournal.com]

Hi! I wandered here from telophase's friendslist so I could read more awesome responses to the OSBP. I saw you have a lot of interests I like as well, and some really cool meta. so I'm friending you if that's okay.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

That's just fine.