So, what makes a girl not be a victim?

[meganbmoore]

Earlier today, someone(I forget who...if it was you, tell me!) linked to an article about long-suffering women of prime time TV.   One thing it briefly touches on is that some women are victims and some aren't, despite suffering the same-or worse-hardships as the "victims."  On the one hand, with the characters I recognize, I wholeheartedly agree in the case of which women are victims, and which aren't.  The article, though, never really delves into this, and barely mentions it more than in passing.

So, I'm wondering, what makes a female character a victim, and what makes her not be a victim?

For me, I think a lot of it can be explained with Makie, Rin, and Hyakurin in Blade of the Immortal. 

In BotI, all three women(and, you know, every other character...) has basically had a wretched life, and in the case of the three masin female characters, being a woman in Japan's Edo period has a lot to do with it.  However, even though I should, I've never been able to warm up to Makie, despite my near-unconditional love for Rin and Hyakurin.  The problem i've always had with Makie is that, of the three, she's the one with abilities that make her best equipped to fight back and defend herself, and claim her life as her own.  Instead, she runs from her problems and wallows in her angst.  She allows herself to be a victim, and to be defined by her status as a victim, despite the fact that she could change that.  Hyakurin and Rin, OTOH, aren't nearly as equipped to deal with the hands they're dealt (and I dare you to find a female character in manga who's suffered as much as Hyakurin has) yet they always stand up and fight and refuses to be brought down by their hardships.  Yes, Rin is young, and sometimes ends up just sitting there while things happen, but you know what?  She's fifteen.  She's ALLOWED to get petrified when bad things happen around her.  And even though she knows she isn't equipped for it, she keeps trying to fight back against a world that keeps kicking her down, and trying to live her life, and get what she wants, on her own terms, instead of lying back and taking it like the world tells her she should.  Hyakurin has literally been dealt every bad hand a woman can be dealt, but she never lets it beat her.  She's the one who should be coddled and given a shoulder to cry on, but instead she tries to do that for others, and, again, she lives in a world that tells her she should lie there and take it, and instead tries her hardest to fight back against it.

ETA:  And the reason I used this icon instead of Rin was because I was originally going to talk about Jo, too, but ran out of time before I had to leave for work.  I suspect I'd have MUCH more to say here if I'd seen season 3 and Bela's arc, but for now, just Jo.

In Jo's (far too small) story, she's essentially defined in two ways:  Jo, the girl who wants to be a Hunter, and Jo, the girl who's trying to be a hunter.  When Jo is finally let out of the Roadhouse and trying to contribute, she's largely defined by the ways she's victimized.  This does not, however, actually make her a victim.  When Jo is captured and imprisoned by an inhuman serial killer, her response is not to panic and whimper and beg to be rescued.  When he reaches in to stroke her hair, she doesn't cower, but instead pulls out her father's knife and stabs her abductor in the hand.  When she's rescued, her response isn't to beg to be taken to safety or flee, but to agree to be the bait to catch him, with no hesitation.  Later, when she's beaten and abducted by her demon possessed friend, her response isn't to beg for mercy, but to give him hell.  When she's rescued by his brother, she doesn't run to safety, but goes after them to try to help.  When the object of her crush  essentially gives her a verbal "Dear Jane" letter, she doesn't mope, but lets us know that, no matter what he thinks, she knows better.  While much of her arc is Jo's being victimized, she never allows herself to actually be a victim, and refuses to let it beat her or hold her back.

TL;DR?

I think a lot of it has to do with whether the character sits there and mopes, or gets back on her feet and tries to punch what knocked her down in the face.

Anyway, what's everyone else's opinion on this?  What's the line (not including the experience itself) between what makes a character a victim, and what keeps them from being a victim?

Comments

[desdenova.livejournal.com]

My instinct is to analyze the question in terms of how a character's experiences are portrayed and dealt with in the context of the work as a whole. But, a proper answer requires specifics and examples, which I don't have time to do right now. But it is an interesting question, so I will think about it! (And I also read the original article. )

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's a hard one to pin down. I think a lot of it boils down to whether they take it, or whether they either come back up swinging or try to deal with it, but it's not quite that easy to define.

ETA: What's the icon from?

[desdenova.livejournal.com]

fictional victimhood: within a story, where we regard the characters as people, I agree with you; non-victims fight back, victims don't. Metatextually, looking at a story as a story, I think a character is portrayed as a victim if the focus of the story is on her suffering, whereas for a non-victim character, the focus of the story is on how she overcomes (or tries to overcome) her suffering. Which is close to the same thing you said, just from a different perspective.

icon: It's a panel from the manga Vampire Game.

[magicnoire.livejournal.com]

You completely hit the nail on the head as to why I cannot and have never been able to warm up to Makie. Rin, yes. Hyakurin, OMGYESPLZ. But Makie? I just don't get her. We're supposed to believe that she's the strongest of all the fighters in the manga (death walking or whatever Anotsu calls her) but all I see is a woman who runs away most of the time. So I'm just unable to buy it.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

To be fair to Makie, the difference between Makie and Rin/Hyakurin is too major for it to not be deliberate on Samura's part, but it's really hard to keep that in mind when you see Rin and Hyakurin constantly being beat down for trying to stand up to the world, and keep getting back up, and Makie keep running without really trying. (Though, she does seem to have finally got her act together...we'll see. If she's just following Anotsu around now, though...I mean, even Anotsu's wife impressed me more than Makie does.)

ETA: Post now with added Jo.

[sub-divided.livejournal.com]

Agreed that the contrast is 100% deliberate. I think Samura is making a point about inner strength being completely unconnected to outer strength. Another point he makes is that you can be skilled, and still not be good: some of the most skilled swordsfighters in this manga have some of the worst personalities. (In fact, pretty much all of the most skilled fighters have HORRIBLE personalities, in contrast to which Makie's isn't so bad: she may be avoidant, but at least she's not sadistic.)

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Hmm...except for Shira, most of the sadistic ones get dispatched pretty quickly. I'd say Makie, Anotsu, Manji, Magatsu(though it's the spur of the moment strategy that sets him appart) and maybe even Giichi are better than most of them, it's just thaty, even though it isn't always obvious, they all fight with a degree of honor, and the others don't. (Then there's Abayama and Sori. I am convinced they don't fight much only because they could fight circles around the rest.)

But yeah, I very much appreciate the contrast Samura makes, but it often makes it hard for me to like Makie much, because it makes her so frustrating.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

*reads article, gets bored* If I watched any of the shows mentioned, and didn't think they were tripe...

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yeah...I watched ER a bit in high school/first year of college, but that's it. I suspect there's a reason I don't watch those. (Except I kinda want to watch Gossip Girl...)

Mostly, I was interested in the victim/not victim thing at the beginning.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

I think the victim/not victim thing doesn't give enough examples I can parse. Out of all the characters listed, Buffy is the only one I know.

[magicnoire.livejournal.com]

It would have been nicer if they'd given specific & expanded "Victimized but Not a Victim" examples the same way they gave "Victim" ones.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

And this is why I posted and said "your opinions, give me them!"

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

I haven't actually watched any of the shows the article covers, but for me, the difference is: Are they trying?

If a bad guy tosses them into a pit and sics their monster on them (when they don't have powers to fly out or whatever), do they stand there and whimper? Grab the nearest rock? Climb into a crack in the wall where the monster can't reach?

Do they stand there and take abuse, or do they strike back however they can?

Even Rita on Dexter, a former victim of domestic abuse who had some massive issues at the start of the first season can kick ass in her own way. She can be fierce when she puts her mind to it, and does everything she can with what she has.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Exactly. And this is why so many complaints about weak/stupid/useless female characters-especially in anime and manga-boggle my mind, because, seriously, whatmore do people want(especially since it'susually the same people who don't want the girls to get in the way of the boys getign to do all the ction.)

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

Yep. A lot of them are just stuck in a horrible, horrible situation that -- no matter their personality type -- they'd have no chance of coming out ahead on with the resources at their disposal, when they're shown as victims.

Heck, even the ones who are used to the hero rescuing them enough that when they get captured they just sit back, relax, and take mental notes on any plans the villain monologues about aren't really victims.

*sigh* If they want slash, they should just opt for the actual yaoi. There's plenty of it out there.

If there was only some way to translate this concept to fan-logic from earth-logic . . .

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Het and gen fans tend to be just as hard-if not harder-on female characters as slash fans. Really, people just seem to view most female characters as being in the way, to the point where it's driven me to where I don't think I'm noticing half the male characters anymore, just out of perverse annoyance(which makes me a hypocrite, but...) I've seen a lot of people-regardless of pairing preferences-seeming to expect a reward for saying they tolerate one out of ten female characters, or some such.

As far as slash goes...I don't know. A lot of people seem more interested in fanon slash than canon, which, to me, often sounds like "I can't COMPLETELY admit that this other girl got him, so I'll claim subtext."(Which sometimes is there, but in most cases where I see it insisted the most, I have to wonder if we're reading/watching the same thing, because a lot of it is when the canon spends a lot of time beating us over the head with the opposite.) And then I know some slash fans who are a lot more interested in female characters than some het fans, and some het fans who don't like female characters, but want the guy to be making out with a girl...

[may-flyer.livejournal.com]

I'm not familiar with the stories you talked about, but I would say that it's a matter of agency.

If a woman is portrayed as having no choice but to sit back and wait for rescue, or to let events sweep her along, then she's a victim. If she has the ability to exercise some (any) sort of choice then it's a different story. To me, Makie sounds more like an idiot than someone who's been victimized.

A person can almost always choose to adopt a constructive attitude, no matter what other avenues of action are cut off. That's why I think that true victims are thin on the ground in literature. Ophelia in Hamlet is the best example I can come up with. She did try to take action and maintain a good attitude, yet her efforts were ultimately irrelevant, and her mind was destroyed by forces beyond her control.

[retsuko.livejournal.com]

IAWTC and Ophelia is a great example--she was not merely a passive figure in the story; she tried to better her position despite tremendous odds. In the end, she tragically lost.

Juliette, in your icon, is another example of a female character I wouldn't classify as a victim despite all that's happened to her. Granted, what has happened -- dysfunctional relationship, sister sick with cancer, tricked into living on the Island, where she has two highly charged and one tragic relationship, and seemingly no friends -- she takes initiative and doesn't let herself get swept up by the story. She tries to change her circumstances and make things happen on her terms.

To me, that's the line--does the character try to take control of what's happening around her? If not, there had better be a pretty compelling reason for her not to do so, or I tend to view her as a victim.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Oh, Makie's been victimized plenty. (Everyone in that book has.) It's just that she's too busy moping about it and being miserable to do anything about it.

Which, thinking of the examples in the article(bearing in mind that I'm mostly familiar with them through the article) seems to be what they're saying: that the difference is that the victims just let it happen and mope about it, instead of trying to fight back however they can.

[nutmeg3.livejournal.com]

Grrrr. I had a whole reply almost written and then my connection glitched and threw me off line. So, to recap, because I'm too tired to recreate my former brilliance (ha ha)...

I think in real life as well as fiction a lot comes down to attitude. If you think of yourself as a victim, even if what you're facing isn't that awful, then you are. If you face whatever gets thrown at you and keep going, you win, no matter what ultimately happens.

In fiction, you have author intent to deal with, too, and a character can be both victimized (by what the author throws at her) and still a winner (because of the way the author makes her respond).

Probably nothing someone else hasn't already said - and said better.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the attitude seems to be a lot of it, if not all.