*shakes fist*

[meganbmoore]

 EBAY PEOPLE!

Stop outbidding me on full runs of Cardcaptor Sakura!

It makes Sakura all upset and disappointed!  Do you know what happens when Sakura is upset and disappointed?  It makes her have a Kurogane moment, and then everything descends into gothic shoujo crack!  Too much of that is bad for the brain!

(Seriously, it's the third or so set I've been outbid on.  I WILL ONLY GO SO HIGH!)

ALSO!!!

(non-fist-shakey)

While I was at work, prozacparkasked me my opinion about #148 of today's Fandom Secrets.  Since she is now logged off and at least one other person here might be interested in it (redbrunja, there aren't any Avatar spoilers in the post) I shall just post it.  The secret was along the lines of "I slash m/m because I think the female characters deserve a lot better than what canon gave them."  I've seen that a few times before, and just ignoring any other opinions I have on fanon shipping,  while I often agree that yes, the girls in fiction could do better and it seems they're just told "Here is the main guy!  You must accept him even though he doesn't appreciate you or treat you well!" my reaction to that response to it is always "But, if you object on her behalf, why are you having her twiddle her thumbs while you send him off to have fun?"

(No, really, if you think canon gave her the short end of the stick and you want her to get better and you're going to do a fanon ship, why doesn't she get to go have fun while the guy who doesn't treat her good enough sits there and sulks?  Why does he get to have all the fun?) 

ETA:  I probably don't have to say this, but just in case:  no bashing the secret maker.  Whoever s/he may be.

Comments

[a-white-rain.livejournal.com]

That kind of opinion actually drives me crazy.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I just don't get it! I mean, distancing myself from the fact that I just do not get the fanon shipping thing at all, I can understand the logic of "s/he deserves so much better!" but if I can consider it to the point where I actually want to pair them with someone else, then I've probably already walked. I want the actual story to make me happy, not an alternative with characters I like. If the story the creator put forth doesn't work for me, then there's another story out there.

But, if you're going to go for an alternative because you think one person got shafted, then why aren't you giving that one the alternative?

Really, it's not something that will influence my opinion of someone(I don't get letting a person's shipping tendencies forge your opinion of them) but it baffles me.

[a-white-rain.livejournal.com]

For me, if they like the ladies so much, why not write the ladies they love with characters they feel they deserve?

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

EXACTLY!

[magicnoire.livejournal.com]

Because that would make too much sense?

[a-white-rain.livejournal.com]

That explains everything in fandom.

[kimiren.livejournal.com]

(pardon meand the randomness)
but, ICON LOVE!

[a-white-rain.livejournal.com]

INCEST IS BEST

Once a King and Queen of Narnia

[kimiren.livejournal.com]

THAT IT IS

[woodburner.livejournal.com]

That is exactly what I always wondered.

There's also its close cousin, "There are no good female characters in anime, so I focus on the boys." Don't even get me started on that one.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

WE DO NOT DISCUSS THAT MINDSET IN THIS LJ! IT MAKES MEGAN KINDA FROTHY!

[woodburner.livejournal.com]

IT MAKES LAURIE KIND OF FROTHY TOO

ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU TALK ENDLESSLY AND LET OUT EARSPLITTING SHRIEKS AT A YAOI PANEL AND THEN COMPLAIN THAT LINA INVERSE ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH BECAUSE SHE'S "TOO LOUD"

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

LINA IS LOUD! THAT'S WHY THE UNIVERSE GAVE HER GOURRY! (AND ZEL! AND AMELIA! AND XELLOS! AND FILIA!) TO OFFSET THAT SO IT WOULDN'T DISTRACT US FROM HER PURE AWESOMENESS!

ALSO! SHE EATS A LOT! SHE STOPS TALKING THEN! AND WILL HURT YOU IF YOU SAY ANYTHING BAD TO HER FACE!

[woodburner.livejournal.com]

LINA IS LOUD AND I LOVE HER LOUD ASS BUT TRUST ME, THIS CHICK WAS LOUDER

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

THERE ARE OTHERS LOUDER! AND LESS AWESOME!

(But still mostly universally undeserving of the venom directed towards them.)

[kimiren.livejournal.com]

if you think canon gave her the short end of the stick and you want her to get better and you're going to do a fanon ship,why doesn't she get to go have fun while the guy who doesn't treat her good enough sits there and sulks? Why does he get to have all the fun?

LOL, EXACTLY.

MY EVIL MIND THINKS: Girlie's looking for a reason why she ships slash without offending/admitting her annoyance of the fem. char.

If you think she deserves better (which would allude to thinking highly of that certain character) you would usually ship/ create fanworks revolving her and the 'Better' scenerio you were wanting for her but hey, maybe that's just me?

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

In all honesty, I'm not sure it's so much an objection to the female characters as much as it is that most people seem to automatically focus on the male characters and fixing them up. (Though I'm sure both sides are out there.)

But the last part? EXACTLY MY POINT.

[kimiren.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure it's so much an objection to the female characters as much as it is that most people seem to automatically focus on the male characters and fixing them up. (Though I'm sure both sides are out there.)

Yes, I agree. Its just my mind usually theorizes first that said shipper either does not like the hero/heroine the hero/heroine is paired w/ thus ships em' with others. I've had many instances where I go to a movie w/ a freind or cousin and (for example) in PotC the scene where Elizabeth kisses Jack.

Their reaction would be: 'OMG she has the gall to actually KISS Jack Sparrow and cheat on Will?!'
Me: What he's not kissable now? *rollseyes* *annoyed mumbling*
*goes home to overload on Jack/Elizabeth shipping*

Siiiiiiigh. Its like they put these men on an exceptionally high pedestal or something.. :(

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Heh...my reaction to that was "no, Elizabeth, that is not the proper way to get your Will back! It will just cause angst!"

[kimiren.livejournal.com]

colbeaar bump of glory.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

That kiss, that kiss made me PLEASED. Because she was being EVIL. And I like evil women.

[kimiren.livejournal.com]

as do I.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Evil! And manipulative! And a user! And he (kinda) knew!

(But Elizabeth, it was only going to cause problems later...)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Oh, thank you! I've been missing fandom secrets. (God knows why).

And I know I've said this before, but your incomprehension is shared.

Fanfic: the way to fix what the author screwed up.

You think the girls deserve better? Fucking well give it to them.

That's why 85% of my Saiyuki fanfic has Yaone.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Fandom secrets serves a variety of purposes. Largely, it reminds us that we are sane, reassures us that we are not alone at times, and gives us things to discuss! (err...without bashing the secret poster)

(See, if I don't think the canon treats them well, I just find another canon. More relaxing! If you get me talking positively about fanon shipping, I've probably walked...like Naruto.)

But there's a major cognitive dissonance to the whole thing. (I think part of it is "I think he's hot anyway, and since I don't like them together, I'll have him be hot with someone else and she doesn't have to put up with him.")

(Really, let's face it, most girls in anime and manga really DO deserve better...I'm just forgiving because, in most of mine, there's some monomania and extreme devotion and the leaving of trails of dead bodies for your girlie, and I just get very forgiving when those things are going on...)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Well said.

But there's a major cognitive dissonance to the whole thing. (I think part of it is "I think he's hot anyway, and since I don't like them together, I'll have him be hot with someone else and she doesn't have to put up with him.")

Oh, major cognitive dissonance, with a fucking huge dollop of mistoginist females (which I assume, until proven otherwise, that slash fans slash because they aren't comfortable/hate their own femaleness.)

(Really, let's face it, most girls in anime and manga really DO deserve better...I'm just forgiving because, in most of mine, there's some monomania and extreme devotion and the leaving of trails of dead bodies for your girlie, and I just get very forgiving when those things are going on...)

Look, when you say they deserve better and don't give it to them, what you're REALLY saying is they deserve worse. There's no real other way to slice it.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I will be completely honest here and say that there are a LOT of male characters, esp. in anime and manga, who I know perfectly well I wouldn't like nearly as much if they weren't seriously hung up on/committed to their girls. The annoying thing is that a lot of people(slash fans and otherwise) also like them because of that...and then hate the girls. Because they're girls and held to 50 times stricter standards.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Don't you just want to reach through the computer and smack em?

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yeah. A friend and I had a long conversation last night about how SDK wouldn't be worth reading without Yuya, because without her, there's no plot, and all the friendship stuff and bonding that everyone loves so much wouldn't be there, because she's what keeps the characters together, and she reminds them that they like each other beyond someone to try to kill. Which, of course, she gets hated and dismissed for because she actually MATTERS.

Anytime someone's primary complaint about something, or the only thing they dislike, is the main female character, and they spend all their time talking about how wonderful the male characters are and don't bother to say anything about any female character beyond how they're annoyed by them, my respect tends to drop.

[prozacpark.livejournal.com]

"But, if you object on her behalf, why are you having her twiddle her thumbs while you send him off to have fun?"

Exactly. In terms of hypocrisy, it's not very different from the "Oh, Slash is *so* feminist because there are no women to be abused!" Or "There's always going to be inequality when there's a woman and a man involved, so I stick with slash." And honestly? I very much doubt that these people would bother with gen fic about the so awesome female characters that they're above being shipped with anyone in canon.

I mean, I would almost rather read a secret about how someone slashes because they find female characters boring. But this new obsession fandom has developed with wanting to sound feminist while hating on the female characters just makes me want to pull my hair out.

And in the bigger picture? Elevating a female character to this status where she is totally above everyone is as problematic as demeaning the character because either way, you're taking her out of the realm of the normal and adding to her otherness. Like media doesn't do that enough for us.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yeah, none of those excuses really make sense to me, either. The whole "it's feminist to dislike female characters because we demand better ones" thing we both seem to be seeing around is....something I will not get into. It makes me frothy.

The flipside to the slash argument is that I do know slashers who care a lot more about female characters-both as characters, and how they're treated in fiction-than some het only people do. There really isn't(always) a correlation between slash and hating/dismissing female characters, they just seem to go together a lot among the most verbal fans.

[magicnoire.livejournal.com]

I never got that justification at all. If you're part of fandom and feel that way... well, why aren't you writing fic where those awesome female characters get the guy you think they deserve? Where the awesome female characters simply do their own thing a la femgenficathon?

Also, I went to the Fandom Secrets post and man, the Tenjho Tenge one makes me say, "DO NOT WANT." No way, no how, would I ever want a brother who cared for me that much because dude, Shin's bordered on incest. "You are the sheath to my sword"? Yikes, no! I mean, it makes a little more sense now given recent events in the manga but still, YIKES NO.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I don't even know what the TenTen secret was.

Really, I don't get the whole thing with shipping in the first place. I do canon shipping, because then it's basically getting invested in a part of the story, but if it doesn't make you squeeful, aren't there enough other parts of the story you like to make up for it? But, if the opinion is "I don't think A treats B well enough for them to be a good couple, so I ship A with C" it seems that the reasoning is that there has to be a ship with one of them, and, of course, it has to be a guy. It's like when I see someone comment on SDK about how Kyo is too mean to Yuya and she should go for Akira or Shinrei...and then I see that person writing/talking about/etc Kyo/Shinrei or Akira/Shinrei. (And I KNOW the SDK fandom just expects her to twiddle her thumbs, waiting for Kyo.)

[magicnoire.livejournal.com]

"I wish my brother cared about me this much."

Well, I do both canon and fanon shipping so I do get that aspect of it. Of course I also go in thinking most of my chosen ships are never going to sail or burn ugly and fiery deaths so I also don't get worked up when the canon comes and makes my pet ship impossible. It's kind of like a side hobby of mine when I read a manga or whatever. "Hmm... these two would be cute. Wouldn't it be fun if they ever became a couple?" You know, that sort of thing. But it doesn't ever overwhelm the other things I like about a manga because honestly, I seriously doubt a fanon ship could keep me interested in a fandom all by itself. Something else has to capture my attention.

I admit I do do the thing where "Girl A is way too good for Boy B." Except I end up shipping Girl A with Boy C and wish Boy B would die in an explosion or something. I don't go and ship Boy B and Boy C while Girl A is in the kitchen making cookies even though that totally goes against her characterization. That's just moronic.

(And I KNOW the SDK fandom just expects her to twiddle her thumbs, waiting for Kyo.)

Alas. It really does make you wonder if they read the same manga we do.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I completely get "this would be fun," and then not really worrying about it and going with the flow, but most don't seem to and center enjoyment around the fanon ship, and finding support for it. That's what I don't get.

I regularly wonder if my SDK copies are a different version from everybody else's. Because I've never seen a Yuya content to sit and wait without a reason short of "if you move, you'll lose you head"(and even THAT doesn't always work) and a Kyo who's either a rapist, or secretly picturing their personal favorite naked. And I'm sorry, but I think there are dents in my head from Kamijyo making sure I understand that Kyo's as straight as they come.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I replied to that one, with "If that were true, you'd kill off the men and write the women. Try again." Because, damn, but their logic fails hard.

My roommate notes that maybe they mean the women aren't good enough for the men, in which case, it is bashing the female characters.

And their logic still fails.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I've seen it a lot of times, though. In all honesty, I could probably accept it if they were ALSO pairing the girl up with someone they thought was better for her. It's just that, almost every time I've seen that argument("I do this fanon ship because I think she deserves better than this canon ship") it's used to explain slash(and not f/f) which is where the logic comes to a screeching halt. If the reason for a fanon ship is that you don't think the canon ship is good enough for a character, so you ship one with someone else, the logical conclusion is shipping the one you feel is slighted. But the fact that it's almost always that she deserves better so he gets shipped just seems to enforce the idea that it's the guy who's the most important, and therefore, the one who should be paired off.

It's like how I've been seeing the argument lately that that part of why people slash is that every female in fiction is a love interest, and a lot of guys get left out, so you have to break up a canon pairing to slash. Ignoring the fact that nowhere near every female is paired off, the only way the rest would hold water is if there were only exactly 2 males and 1 female in the work of fiction. Pretty much everything has various unpaired males and females, the fact that it seems to gravitate towards slashing the main(usually paired) male just seems to indicate that you think your favorite HAS to be with the main male to be important or something.

[musouka-manga.livejournal.com]

Ah, but this is assuming that writing slash means that you ignore the female characters. I'm cowriting a Phoenix Wright P/E fic with a friend that features mass amounts of every major female character we can work into the story--and they have their own plotlines, not just as orbit to the main characters.

I mean, isn't it just as ridiculous to claim that the only way a girl can have "fun" is if she's liplocking the male main character? That's an argument that pisses me off more than anything else. None of the women we're writing is in a romantic relationship with the exception of Mia and Maggey, and that's because theirs are canon (and we adore them, that helps). But I'm not "disrespecting" Maya--as some PW fans have actually claimed!--if I don't think she and Phoenix make a good couple. Good family? A thousand times yes? A couple? Not on your life.

You might say that a lot of slash fans do ignore the female characters. That might be true, but at the same time, you have no way of knowing what category the secretmaker falls under.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

See, I do not remotely get the assumption so many seem to have that there has to be a ship, that there should be an OTP with your favorite character, etc. Outside of romance novels and straight shoujo romances(where the pairing is the whole point) it seems there should be more that makes yo happy than whether or not the pairing is a couple you want to see playing tonsil hockey. I have a severe cognitive dissonance with the entire concept of fanon shipping, partly because it is built around the idea that that a character can't be complete, having fun, etc. without liplock. Het for the sake of het is as bad as slash for the sake of slash.

I don't play PE, but it sounds like you simply favor one fanon ship over another. Saying you like the m/m fanon ship over the m/f one and the m/f one doesn't make sense isn't the same as as saying you dislike the m/f canon(implied or explicit) because you don't think he's good enough for her, and shipping him with someone else is your response. As fanon shipping seems to be built around the idea that canon didn't treat a character well enough, and wanting them to be "happy" with someone. So saying the canon didn't treat the female good enough, but then shipping the male with someone else doesn't really make a logical sense. It's almost like "what canon gave her wasn't good enough, so she has to be happy alone, but he can still find someone else."

[musouka-manga.livejournal.com]

But a LOT of the female characters she listed aren't in "canon" couples either--and, in the case of Akari from HikaGo, really do deserve a guy that will actually like them back, but that's something else entirely. I like to jokingly say that Maya doesn't deserve Phoenix, because he can be a grade-A jerk to her sometimes. Doesn't mean he doesn't absolutely adore her, and that he wouldn't run over a burning bridge for her--literally.

What I'm trying to say is that liking a couple is seperate from liking a character. Romance isn't a "reward" for being a well-written, interesting character--being written about in general is. And, well, I know slash can be frustrating, but, again, I really think the secret is offensive only if you assume that the female character is being ignored in favor of the males, something that as implicit as one might think. In addition, it also assumes that the female couples can't be shipped with anyone else. I know in HikaGo I really, really liked Akari and Mitani. Hikaru is a JERK to her--seriously, he is possibly one of the rudest shounen leads I've ever seen to his main (at the beginning at least) heroine--but that doesn't stop me from loving the relationship of mutual respect and tension he and his rival have...

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Well, what I (and the others commenting in this post) are responding to is that the secret is presented (and how I usually hear the argument) as "I slash m/m because I think the girl deserves better than what she was given."

braking it down, you have:

1) I object to this het pairing.

(Us: OK)

2) I think she deserves better.

(Us: OK)

3) My response is to find an alternative pairing.

(Us: OK)

4) Therefore, I will ship the one who I think isn't appreciative enough/good enough/etc. with someone else.

(Us: Wait! What?)

The way it comes across as presented is that there has to be a pairing, and it's the male who gets to have the pairing. (And yes, most seem to approach shipping as the romance/sex being their character's "reward"..."I like you so you should get to have sex with the hot one/lead"...it's part of why I don't like fanon shipping in the first place.)

[musouka-manga.livejournal.com]

I don't think Character A is good enough for Character B. That has nothing to do with whether I like Character A on his own merits or with someone else.

I can think Hikaru isn't good [enough] for Akari and still love him as a character. As a matter of fact, he was my favorite character in that series, and a large chunk of that was because of his selfish, incredibly human behavior. I can also just as easily think he goes well with a character like Akira, who will fight right back when Hikaru is being selfish, than with Akari, who tended to get more hurt when Hikaru treated her that way.

So it's not a fallacy to think a character isn't "good enough" for another. "Not good enough" doesn't mean "not good at all".

[desdenova.livejournal.com]

Well, if you give up on getting a full run and decide to acquire CCS piecewise, let me know--I have a spare copy of vol. 10 (aka Cardcaptor Sakura Master of the Clow 4) that I'd be happy to send you.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Well, people keep listingthem, so I'm not TOO worried.

(and I did book closeouts yesterday, but they didn't have full runs anymore...i think i can get the tokyo babylon, rayearth, and rg veda books i still need, though)

[wingstodust.livejournal.com]

omg, you have introduced me to Fandom Secrets and I CAN'T STOP READING THEM!!! *ded*