I'm sorry, I'm fictionally cranky today.

[meganbmoore]

 Another thing that's been going around that's been making me extremely irritable (and most definitely carried over into the other posts of the day) is a lot of the talk about women in comic book movies.  Outside of Fantastic Four, X-Men, and Daredevil, all these superhero comic book movies the last few years are having heroines largely limited to non-action roles, mostly just the girlfriend or mother figure.  Uhm...so far, I've largely thought they were all pretty cool myself, but we aren't getting into that.  (Lets face it, X-Men and FF only had action girls because they're team movies, and DD because Elektra is his best known lover.  We pretend Catwoman does not exist.  Just like we pretend Halle Berry as Storm did not make the entire comic book fandom sob in sorrow.)  Then there's Doctor Horrible.  I haven't seen it yet, so I'm not commenting there.  It seems to be bringing a lot of this out, though.

But someone somewhere said that that's all any of the female characters in comic books were.  And someone else said that female characters never should have any role save the girl to get rescued or the mother.  And all comic book heroine suck anyway.

The women in this icon, and everyone remotely associated with them, would like to have words with that sentiment.  As would an amazingly long list of women connected to the heroes movies are being made of.  And an even longer list of other women in comic books.

No, I'm not linking.  I burned the threads from my head as best I could.  Much like the "Storm should be raped" essay I once read.

Here's the thing.  Pretty much all all these iconic heroes they've been making movies of have several action women-lovers, heroines, and enemies-linked to them.  Batman in particular is drowning in them.  But you know what?  The movie makers skip them.  It's basically all about the screen writing articles I linked to earlier.  Other character types in these movies would, very simply, have more to do in the plot and distract from the hero being heroic and saving the day.  Apparently, the rule is that girls in comic book movies only get to help do that if there are several boy heroes.

My point?  I'm not sure I really have one, beyond apparently being generally cranky regarding fiction today.  I get watching comic book movies and saying the female characters are mostly just love interests, because it's true.  That doesn't mean they suck.  But watching a few movies and knowing nothing about comics themselves or the characters beyond the iconic males Hollywood has been promoting, and assuming there are no heroines in the action sense, or female characters beyond assistants and girlfriends?  I might refrain from biting your head off if I like you.

Comic books = Megan's babies, even if The Big Two are annoying her too much for her to be reading a lot lately.

And Gwyneth Paltrow says comic books are only for boys.  What does that make me and about half the f-list that read comics?  She can join Halle Berry in the Comic Book Movie Hall of Ultimate Shame.

Also, I have been spoiled for a part of Dark Knight.  It does not influence my intentions of seeing the movie, but:

Barbara.  Freaking. Gordon.  Mess with her the way the spoilers threaten, and there may be blood.

Comments

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

I would counter that with Liz Sherman from Hellboy 2, but that movie really is a teamy ensemble. And I'd like to refrain from spoiling people, yo

[advance.livejournal.com]

As I think we've both had this conversation I get so tired of people just running their mouths and not sitting down to even THINK about what they're saying.

All female's in comic books suck? Uh.. can I say a nice big 'screw you' because obviously they've never actually read the damn comics they're complaining about.

*rolls eyes* It's like when people try to say that Green Goblin is the ZOMG BIG BADGUY OF SPIDERMAN just because he was in two of the movies... I always look at them and go 'Uh..you're missing like.. 5 others just to let you know."

Hell I can name at least five other female heroines who can kick ass by themselves.

AND BARBARA?! I haven't seen the movie yet but I hope they don't fuck her up... ><"

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Part of why I specifically said "superhero" comics. Also, most of the people saying this ignore Hellboy and V for Vendetta and such as being comic book movies.

I want my Wonder Woman and Witchblade movies already.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

It's...well, actually it's a relatively minor spoiler, which is why I let myself get spoiled about it.

You know...I can honestly say tht a female character is the main reason I started checking out several specific companies.

[advance.livejournal.com]

I end up getting into comics from Spider-man. 90% of the comics I love was from something being mentioned in Spider-Man or a cross-over. The whole Civil War that marvel had got me into a lot more comics.

Hawkeye from Young Avengers can kick some serious ass by herself and hell she saved the damn team without being a part of the team or even having powers! Sure she's on a team but she doesn't need it.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

girl!Hawkeye(love her, but also love the other one, so just attaching genders so I don't get confused)was kicking butt and saving them before she had a single toy. Patriot was sulking about it.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

I hate that people do that. Like Hellboy and V are some sort of special tier. The same goes for Watchmen. (which I've seen stills for that just make go, "wow. How white and male")

That said, Hellboy did have a kickass female character who wasn't solely defined by being the Hero's Girlfriend.

[lotuseyes.livejournal.com]

look all I can think of is it can't be a worse incarnation then Alicia Silverstone in Batman and Robin. THEY MADE HER ALFRED'S NIECE. that alone made me want to rally against the movie. The fact she was blonde almost made me want to boycott it totally except Chris O'Donnell was a hot if too old and street-punk Robin. He should have been Jason Todd with some of his antics.

[advance.livejournal.com]

Heck yeah! I kind of don't like Cassie in that team though because she's a little weak but >> I'll just ignore the stuff that happened in the Civil War and go and fawn over 'Hawkingbird' *snorts*

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yes. I really need to both read and watch Hellboy.

To be fair to Watchmen(which I have neutral interest in)...wasn't the original comic the same?

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

IT IS LIKE THE CATWOMAN MOVIE! IT DOES NOT EXIST!

Unlike certain others, though, at least AS seemed to enjoy herself, instead of treating it like earning a paycheck and looking fown on the customers.

[kingcrankycat.livejournal.com]

I can't think of what Babs moment you might be referring to here? I can only think of some emotional trauma to her that would also have been applied equally to the rest of her family, so I don't count that...

Also worth noting that Angelina Jolie in "Wanted" was a total bad-ass -- far more than the main character of the movie (and intentionally so, at that)

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

It's the part where they gave Gordon a son and (from all accounts I've heard) shift the family focus for Gordon to him. Unless Gordon had a son who died young and I just don't know about it, that's a pretty big shakeup already.

I would take the Wanted mention into account were it not for the part where I am morally opposed to supporting Millar in any way. Not being willing to boycott Marvel altogether is the only exception.

[kingcrankycat.livejournal.com]

You can boycott the movie if you so choose, but it's still a valid point against your current crusade target.

Gordon did have a son in pre-crisis continuity, but I don't believe he was ever mentioned post-crisis (of course my knowledge of DC continuity is very limited). I don't know what his fate was in the pre-crisis DCU. Also worth noting that in post-crisis continuity Babs was originally not Gordon's daughter anyway (adopted his brothers'(?) daughter); that may have been retconned, though.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

It was, yup. Right at the moment, my disgusted with the media self doesn't care (STAR TREK. STAR TREK had a black male lead and then a female lead. Has everyone else decided they don't need to have anymore diversity now?)

[jennawaterford.livejournal.com]

(I didn't see your post until I wrote this, so it's addressing Megan's original comment, but FYI)

"They" didn't give Gordon a son -- Gordon has had a son off and on in Bat-continuity for YEARS. He had a son named Tony pre-Crisis who was Barbara's brother and a son named James Jr. post-Crisis (who was originally Barbara's cousin. He and his mother Barbara have been variously dead or estranged for most of the recent years of continuity (mostly because I don't think anyone knows what to do with them) but they're still "out there" unless any recent revamps have wiped them out completely.

[jennawaterford.livejournal.com]

Also, Wanted rocked so hard, it hurt. It was action crack on rails, and Angelina was completely believable as the biggest badass in the room at all times.

Love, love, love that crazy, cracky movie.

Plus James MacAvoy. Yum.

[kingcrankycat.livejournal.com]

Ah, never even knew about James Jr, only about Tony. As I noted though, my knowledge of the DC continuity is very, very lax.

[lotuseyes.livejournal.com]

this is true. that might have been her only redeeming feature as Batgirl/Barbara. though who wouldn't enjoy being a butt-kicking female next to Robin?

WAIT THEY MADE A CATWOMAN MOVIE? i thought that was a silly rumor that Halle Berry was CATWOMAN! I mean who in their ever loving mind would cast HER as CATWOMAN? and that suit! ::shudders:: let me tell you I was so excited for that movie until I heard Halle Berry was in it. Then I cried alot because it obviously wasn't going to be the Catwoman of my youth AT ALL nor would it even be a decent comparison to the comics...bad enough she ruined Storm for me, but Catwoman? WHY BOTH COMPANIES?

[kingcrankycat.livejournal.com]

I share Megan's moral aversion to all things Mark Millar, but I couldn't resist the pure insanity of "Wanted" (movie... never read the comics). I can't really say I regret it (except for two scenes -- MacAvoy hitting the railway tunnel and the way he finished off the knife guy; I had to look away for both)

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

In the case of Wanted, I'm not sure the world at large (read: the people saying there's no good female characters in comics nd comic book movies) recognizes Wanted as being a comic book movie. Like V For Vendetta, it doesn't seem to be being advertised as such, and most feedback on it that I've seen hasn't been aware that it was based on one until someone pointed it out.

I think Babs's parentage has been retconned back and forth a few times, actually, but she's currently adopted.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yeah, like I said, I wasn't really sure. I knew I'd never heard of him, but I've never been overly interested in the core Bat-stuff. I've just seen a lot of feedback reacting to his apparently having most of the "Gordon's family" atention. (Course, this could just be to kill him and the wife in the next movie and give Babs and Gordon lots of angst...)

[kingcrankycat.livejournal.com]

I did have to point it out to two of the people I saw the movie with, true (both of whom I believe even read graphic novels, although not avidly). Doesn't change the fact that it is a comic movie, though, which means it is valid evidence -- even if you might have to show people physical proof of the GNs existence and copyright dates (not that I'd advocate purchasing the comics/tpb, even for the greater good of advancing the argument this all spawned from)

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

What killed the movie for me was when she said they made it a reincarnation thing, so all the other Catwomen through various Batman incarnations could still exist. Which...uhm...most were versions of Selina Kyle? Which her character wasn't?

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

In all honesty, I'd probably be less opposed to this particular piece if I hadn't read some of the comic. Enough to know it was Millar, but about 10 times moreso.