I'm sorry, I'm fictionally cranky today.

[meganbmoore]

 Another thing that's been going around that's been making me extremely irritable (and most definitely carried over into the other posts of the day) is a lot of the talk about women in comic book movies.  Outside of Fantastic Four, X-Men, and Daredevil, all these superhero comic book movies the last few years are having heroines largely limited to non-action roles, mostly just the girlfriend or mother figure.  Uhm...so far, I've largely thought they were all pretty cool myself, but we aren't getting into that.  (Lets face it, X-Men and FF only had action girls because they're team movies, and DD because Elektra is his best known lover.  We pretend Catwoman does not exist.  Just like we pretend Halle Berry as Storm did not make the entire comic book fandom sob in sorrow.)  Then there's Doctor Horrible.  I haven't seen it yet, so I'm not commenting there.  It seems to be bringing a lot of this out, though.

But someone somewhere said that that's all any of the female characters in comic books were.  And someone else said that female characters never should have any role save the girl to get rescued or the mother.  And all comic book heroine suck anyway.

The women in this icon, and everyone remotely associated with them, would like to have words with that sentiment.  As would an amazingly long list of women connected to the heroes movies are being made of.  And an even longer list of other women in comic books.

No, I'm not linking.  I burned the threads from my head as best I could.  Much like the "Storm should be raped" essay I once read.

Here's the thing.  Pretty much all all these iconic heroes they've been making movies of have several action women-lovers, heroines, and enemies-linked to them.  Batman in particular is drowning in them.  But you know what?  The movie makers skip them.  It's basically all about the screen writing articles I linked to earlier.  Other character types in these movies would, very simply, have more to do in the plot and distract from the hero being heroic and saving the day.  Apparently, the rule is that girls in comic book movies only get to help do that if there are several boy heroes.

My point?  I'm not sure I really have one, beyond apparently being generally cranky regarding fiction today.  I get watching comic book movies and saying the female characters are mostly just love interests, because it's true.  That doesn't mean they suck.  But watching a few movies and knowing nothing about comics themselves or the characters beyond the iconic males Hollywood has been promoting, and assuming there are no heroines in the action sense, or female characters beyond assistants and girlfriends?  I might refrain from biting your head off if I like you.

Comic books = Megan's babies, even if The Big Two are annoying her too much for her to be reading a lot lately.

And Gwyneth Paltrow says comic books are only for boys.  What does that make me and about half the f-list that read comics?  She can join Halle Berry in the Comic Book Movie Hall of Ultimate Shame.

Also, I have been spoiled for a part of Dark Knight.  It does not influence my intentions of seeing the movie, but:

Barbara.  Freaking. Gordon.  Mess with her the way the spoilers threaten, and there may be blood.

Comments

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

I would counter that with Liz Sherman from Hellboy 2, but that movie really is a teamy ensemble. And I'd like to refrain from spoiling people, yo

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Part of why I specifically said "superhero" comics. Also, most of the people saying this ignore Hellboy and V for Vendetta and such as being comic book movies.

I want my Wonder Woman and Witchblade movies already.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

I hate that people do that. Like Hellboy and V are some sort of special tier. The same goes for Watchmen. (which I've seen stills for that just make go, "wow. How white and male")

That said, Hellboy did have a kickass female character who wasn't solely defined by being the Hero's Girlfriend.

[advance.livejournal.com]

As I think we've both had this conversation I get so tired of people just running their mouths and not sitting down to even THINK about what they're saying.

All female's in comic books suck? Uh.. can I say a nice big 'screw you' because obviously they've never actually read the damn comics they're complaining about.

*rolls eyes* It's like when people try to say that Green Goblin is the ZOMG BIG BADGUY OF SPIDERMAN just because he was in two of the movies... I always look at them and go 'Uh..you're missing like.. 5 others just to let you know."

Hell I can name at least five other female heroines who can kick ass by themselves.

AND BARBARA?! I haven't seen the movie yet but I hope they don't fuck her up... ><"

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

It's...well, actually it's a relatively minor spoiler, which is why I let myself get spoiled about it.

You know...I can honestly say tht a female character is the main reason I started checking out several specific companies.

[advance.livejournal.com]

I end up getting into comics from Spider-man. 90% of the comics I love was from something being mentioned in Spider-Man or a cross-over. The whole Civil War that marvel had got me into a lot more comics.

Hawkeye from Young Avengers can kick some serious ass by herself and hell she saved the damn team without being a part of the team or even having powers! Sure she's on a team but she doesn't need it.

[lotuseyes.livejournal.com]

look all I can think of is it can't be a worse incarnation then Alicia Silverstone in Batman and Robin. THEY MADE HER ALFRED'S NIECE. that alone made me want to rally against the movie. The fact she was blonde almost made me want to boycott it totally except Chris O'Donnell was a hot if too old and street-punk Robin. He should have been Jason Todd with some of his antics.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

IT IS LIKE THE CATWOMAN MOVIE! IT DOES NOT EXIST!

Unlike certain others, though, at least AS seemed to enjoy herself, instead of treating it like earning a paycheck and looking fown on the customers.

[lotuseyes.livejournal.com]

this is true. that might have been her only redeeming feature as Batgirl/Barbara. though who wouldn't enjoy being a butt-kicking female next to Robin?

WAIT THEY MADE A CATWOMAN MOVIE? i thought that was a silly rumor that Halle Berry was CATWOMAN! I mean who in their ever loving mind would cast HER as CATWOMAN? and that suit! ::shudders:: let me tell you I was so excited for that movie until I heard Halle Berry was in it. Then I cried alot because it obviously wasn't going to be the Catwoman of my youth AT ALL nor would it even be a decent comparison to the comics...bad enough she ruined Storm for me, but Catwoman? WHY BOTH COMPANIES?

[kingcrankycat.livejournal.com]

I can't think of what Babs moment you might be referring to here? I can only think of some emotional trauma to her that would also have been applied equally to the rest of her family, so I don't count that...

Also worth noting that Angelina Jolie in "Wanted" was a total bad-ass -- far more than the main character of the movie (and intentionally so, at that)

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

It's the part where they gave Gordon a son and (from all accounts I've heard) shift the family focus for Gordon to him. Unless Gordon had a son who died young and I just don't know about it, that's a pretty big shakeup already.

I would take the Wanted mention into account were it not for the part where I am morally opposed to supporting Millar in any way. Not being willing to boycott Marvel altogether is the only exception.

[kingcrankycat.livejournal.com]

You can boycott the movie if you so choose, but it's still a valid point against your current crusade target.

Gordon did have a son in pre-crisis continuity, but I don't believe he was ever mentioned post-crisis (of course my knowledge of DC continuity is very limited). I don't know what his fate was in the pre-crisis DCU. Also worth noting that in post-crisis continuity Babs was originally not Gordon's daughter anyway (adopted his brothers'(?) daughter); that may have been retconned, though.

[melengro.livejournal.com]

The Dark Knight has three Barbaras Gordon: Jim Gordon's wife, daughter, and niece are all named Barbara.

It's not clear which one, if any, will become Batgirl/Oracle.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

The niece and daughter should be the same person, named after the wife.

The problems I've seen the fandom up in arms about regarding her (in response to claims that Batgirl, Huntress, Catwoman, Talia, or any female in Batman's life who isn't simply a villain or limited to the friend/girlfriend role) is that most of the attention in the movie is on Gordon's son, and that this Barbara is far too young to ever be Batgirl unless the movies start skipping a decade.

[melengro.livejournal.com]

Jim's son is pretty prominent, but it's never made clear how old Barbara is. Probably about ten or twelve, in which case they'd have to retcon Batgirl to be a teenager, but hey, you never know.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

Really? I paid attention to the credits, and she was only listed as Gordon's Daughter.

[chomiji]

Heh, Gwyneth Paltrow ... just because she got the play the wielder of Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, all of the sudden, she's an expert!

And it's all such BS. Even if you stick to classical sources, women warriors kicking ass have a long history. These guys need to hear about Britomart/Bradamante (from The Faerie Queen and Orlando Furioso), for example. And then there are historical figures like the Trung Sisters of Vietnam. Methinks some boys are feeling one-upped by the women in their lives, so they're running off at the mouth.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Well...I question the choices of female characters the studios are choosing for the superhero movies (Hulk and Superman have always pretty much been one woman men-well, Superman has also had Lana Lang, but that was pre-Lois, and she basically exists because someone decided they didn't like Lois, IMO-but all the others have had love interests of the action variety) but I think the characters themselves have all turned out pretty well. My objection is the morons who go "female characters in super hero movies should only be girlfriends, and female characters in comics suck anyway." And, as discussed elsewhere in the post, you could drag them over to the graphic novels section of any bookstore and show them V for Vendetta or Hellboy of Road to Perdition or a host of comic book movies that aren't superhero movies and show they predate the movie, and they'll still refuse to accept them as comic book movies

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

Sounds like the sort who think that comic books = superheros in tights and capes. (Which is the sort of attitude I'm used to expecting from folks who don't read comics at all and thus have never even noticed that there's a lot more to the genre than just the biggest superhero titles...it's rather distressing to see a fanboyish version approaching that same inanity from the other side. I mean, even if they're the sort who think all the non-superhero/arty/indy etc. books really suck, you'd think that just from walking past them in the stores they would at least acknowledge their existence!)

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

I think you're conflating Paltrow with the vastly more awesome Cate Blanchett there. ;)

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I was wondering about that, but decided it was snark or a movie I wasn't familiar with.

And Cate is, of course, most definitely vastly more awesome.

[shiegra.livejournal.com]

Nobody I talked to understood my ghastly, shuddering horror at Halle Berry's performance as Storm!

This is why I don't talk to strangers on teh internets, you know.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I keep trying to tell myself that they didn't really expect us to believe it was Storm. It never works, though. (The annoying thing is that, with the setup, Wolverine/Storm was actually a viable possibility...and I couldn't get behind the idea, because of the Storm we were given.)

[irenak.livejournal.com]

I think this might be why, other problems in the film aside, Catwoman in Batman Returns actually worked so well - she wasn't there to be saved and she wasn't there to be defeated. She pretty much just wanted to do her own thing and it just kind of sucked that Batman happened to be in the way as her beef wasn't actually with him. It also makes her rejection of Bruce's offer at the end that much more significant - it's not that she doesn't like him, it's that she doesn't *need* him and it makes her presence in the film that much stronger.

Compare to Rachel Dawes in Batman Begins and you've got a pitch perfect example of what so often goes wrong with women in superhero movies - the role as written is thin on the ground to start out and then you've cast an actress who simple doesn't the sheer force of personality to pull it off, especially sharing the screen with people like Michael Caine and Morgan Freeman. It ends up making her a non-presence.

Though, hmm, come to think of it why *didn't* they go with Talia in that film instead of Ducard? Her presence would have made just as much sense and her function could have easily been the same. Though that leads into a whole other mess of arguments, namely why is it a woman can be the major arch nemesis of another woman but never of a man? And that seems to be true both in comics and their films. So, something else to muddle over.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Outside of team shows, I think Catwoman and Elektra are the only ones whothe studios have really allowed to be characters, instead of just female things to pine.