(no subject)

[meganbmoore]

Not that I need more books, but can anyone offer up opinion on Sara Douglass's Wayfarer books, Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel books, Brian Sanderson's Mistborn books, or Elizabeth Hayden's Symphony of Ages books?  (Yes, I know those aren't the official titles for some...)

Comments

[anatomiste.livejournal.com]

I've read the first trilogy of Kushiel books twice--loved it the first time, had critiques the second. Of the second trilogy, I bought the first book, read it, left it on the shelf for a while, and then read it again because I thought I hadn't finished it the first time. Seriously, I would finish a chapter, think, "oh, I guess I got this far," and then discover I'd read the next one--all the way to the end. Come to think of it, that was only a few months ago and I can't now remember what the plot was.

The first trilogy is still lots of fun for me. Yes on what people have been saying about the kinky sex and the prose. Especially in the first two books, I'm content with the sex, because they're told from the POV of the person who's being hurt during sex in such a way that we're absolutely clear she likes it, and it's taking place in a world that makes a really big deal of consent. (Rape is, literally, heresy--which makes me happy.) In the third book, Carey steps over some of the limits that she sets in the first two, and which may already be too extreme for some people. I found it hard to read when I read and reread it several years ago, and now after spending a lot of time doing work against sexual violence, I think it would bother me a lot.

A concern that no one (so far) has brought up is how Eurocentric the books are. They're set in an alternate of our world. At the center is Terre d'Ange, which is France. The viewpoint character is extremely patriotic and presents her country as the cultural and spiritual peak of the world. Initially Terre d'Ange is threatened by neighboring barbarians (Germanic tribes) and attempts a friendly encounter with other neighboring barbarians (British Celts). There's a lot of typing by nationality going on, but this is obviously part of the viewpoint character's worldview, and as she matures, she learns to dismantle stereotypes.

The third book is different. The viewpoint character leaves the familiar Europe-region and goes south to an alternate-Africa. While other cultures and religions belonging to the Europe-region have been seen (by the viewpoint character) as different, a little strange, and not really as good as those practiced in Terre d'Ange, she's really viewed them as accessible and understandable choices. However, in the Africa-region (I believe in an alternate Sudan), she encounters a religion that is PURE EVIL, INCOMPREHENSIBLE, and MUST BE DESTROYED. This isn't just the viewpoint character's attitude; it's validated by the narrative structure. While this is a fantasy novel and therefore (I think) can contain things that really are EVIL, I find it really problematic that Carey chose to situate this in her alternate-Africa, whose cultures and religions have already had more than their share of being characterized by Europeans as evil, incomprehensible, and targeted for destruction.

[anatomiste.livejournal.com]

(I have a little more to say but I've just been summoned to eat!)

[worldserpent.livejournal.com]

The Kushiel books had an interesting start (I only read the first trilogy), but I felt the third book was too rushed and brought things to a jumbled conclusion.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Glad to see you're still around!

[anatomiste.livejournal.com]

I believe you don't enjoy characters to whom everything comes easily, and who develop and progress through the plot without real challenges. (I hope I'm paraphrasing your views here correctly!) I'm having trouble deciding where Phedre (the viewpoint character) is according to these criteria--they're not something I think of much when I read; if anything, I like competency, and difficult problems for which a character is ill prepared make me nervous...

This being said, what I do know is that Phedre is a Mary Sue. This is mitigated by her living in a land full of extraordinary and beautiful people, and by the fact that she does develop--while she's clever and creative and charismatic from the start, she also gets wiser in her understanding of her world, so that from the point of view of the end of the second book, her voice at the beginning of the first seems naive.

A major difference between the first and second trilogies (that I actually remember!) is the narration--the first is all by Phedre, the second by another character close to her. In the first, I wasn't bothered by her Mary Sue-ness because I was absorbed by her voice; in the second, the viewpoint character constantly focuses on her from the outside and keeps going ON AND ON AND ON about how perfect and beautiful and good she is.

[magicnoire.livejournal.com]

I loved the first three Kushiel books. The second trilogy doesn't quite live up to the first, if only because it's not as over the top and the protagonist is an emo angstmuffin. They aren't to everyone's tastes, however,

[sureasdawn.livejournal.com]

It is indeed. One of my favorite McKillip books, too. I'm also a Kinuko Y. Craft fan. :D

[kingcrankycat.livejournal.com]

I have not read Mistborn, but it comes to me highly recommended from a friend I trust in such matters. It is currently number 2 on my too read pile.

[hrimcealde.livejournal.com]

the first of the Wayfarer series wasn't all bad--although it was pretty bad. But I wasn't sure about the other books so I looked up synopses, and they were BAD. She basically ruins her own plot, which was okay. not great, but okay.

The Kushiel series (the first trilogy) I loved. Each book sort of focuses on a different element to me--her physical life and development, her spiritual life and development, and her emotional life and development.

The plots are highly intricate and involve hundreds of characters--so much so that it comes with a dramatis personae in the front of the book. I needed it. Maybe other people could see the plot twists that were coming, but I sure couldn't. I think they're well written, beautiful books.

I have heard her other books Banewreaker, etc, were not as good.

[snarp]

Closer to Higuri You in terms of narrative sanity, but to Kaori Yuki in terms of happy-ending-ness and relative well-meaning-ness of the protagonists. (And it worries me that I consider people like Cain and Kira "well-meaning," but, you know. Relative to Cesare!) They are both pretty good comparisons, though. I agree with rachelmanija that Carey is a love-her-or-hate-her type writer.

Midway through Douglass's Wayfarer books, I discovered that I had developed a sharp personal dislike for every single named character.

[bzoppa.livejournal.com]

Reading through these comments, I got interested in the Kushiel books, so I checked the series out in fantasticfiction. Saw the first book and realized I randomly picked it up from the library one day (but never read it).

Thanks for the roundabout rec! I'll have to check the book out again. I do that a lot, check out books and never read them...

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Hmm...well, with Cain it is usually justice or self-protection, I think. He's just more than a wee bit diabolical. Kira...err..."He did it all for love!" is a fairly legitimate argument, you know! Though that could also be said of Cesare...

Hmm, what about Laures...

[telophase.livejournal.com]

Douglass: never read

Carey: Read first, hated the Mary Sue main character, didn't like anyting else enough to bother with reading more.

Sanderson: Have first book on shelf, have read first chapter. Too soon to say. Like his writing podcast.

Hayden: Read all three. Main character hideously flaming Mary Sue, but liked the two other characters she hung around with, read books for them. Have zero desire to re-read.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Unrelated: Have now read (but not yet posted on) the new Antique Gift Shop and Vol 7 of Angel Diary. Couldn't help noticing that Yang's robes at the death anniversary were very similar to Green Rupert's, though they could both just be wearing funeral garb. In Angel Diary, the male lead asks his underling to get him some demon hunters, and the underling says he'll get in youch with Green Rupert. Though I have no idea how much Angel Diary's version will have to do with the folklore version, if he actually appears.

[telophase.livejournal.com]

Ooh, interesting! I may have to look in to this. :D

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I keep meaning to do a google search, or see if any of my mythology books has a decent Korean section...

(Angel Diary seems to have little to do with actual Korean mythology, but is quite fun!)

[telophase.livejournal.com]

Let me know if you find anything!

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Unrelated again: Re: Saiyuki Reload: Gunlock: OMG WTF SANZO AND GOKU IN APRONS!!!

[telophase.livejournal.com]

THE SERIES GETS BETTER WORSE.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

There's already seen puppy!Goku (though I kind of think of him that way anyway...I think I was even made a post explaining Goku as Sanzo's pet dog) and tree!Sanzo.

Also, Google search is giving me nothing! Of course, as both series are from Yen, it could be a translation of something completely different...

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

It does have a certain vibe of SM chic/Everyone Is Bi/Exotification of European History that way, yes. But the plots are slightly more sane. And women aren't all evil or dead, you know :)

[mycenae.livejournal.com]

The Black Jewels books were loltastic fantasy smut, with like underage furry sex but it's all a dream, whereas the Kushiel books* were like OMG RAZOR BLADES GO WHERE? DO NOT WANT!

*I only read about half of the first one, so I don't know if they got better or worse.

[lotuseyes.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure they stay on that level if I understood my friend correctly (is it bad that she rec'ed them to me specifically because of the kinky smut? I'm not sure what that says about her opinion of me...)

mwaha the Black Jewels books make me giggle for certain. I began reading them long before I was allowed Sex Ed long story so for much of the first two books I was like 'really? you can do that? For that long?! Wow!' and finally in Sex Ed when I learned how ::ahem:: unusual some of the stuff they engaged in was I laughed and had to explain to the instructor which explaining about how I knew what a cockring was, was mighty uncomfortable

[lotuseyes.livejournal.com]

I know the Troy Game (and its companions) sounded so cool, but I have picked it up a dozen times and can't get past the first twenty pages without sighing and getting distracted...

[keilexandra]

Carey's Kushiel books are awesome. Tasteful, eloquent, non-gratituous (but explicit) BDSM; political intrigue and heart-breaking angst. Admittedly I've only read the first trilogy about Phedre, although I hear the Imriel books are good too.

I'm assuming that the Hayden series you're referring to begins with RHAPSODY? I would not recommend it; as Mary-Sue as published fiction gets, in the standard quest fantasy format.

No firsthand experience with the others, though I've heard good things about Mistborn.