So, is he saying that I don't exist, or that I'm a weirdo?

[meganbmoore]

Or that I'm both?

The award for the first overwhelmingly sexist thing I've read this year.  No wait, second.  Being linked to Terrence Howard's ideas about women was the first.

Even Wonder Womanwas only a success because men supported her. The old Wonder Woman television show was a hit because men tuned in. Men tuned in because Wonder Woman was hot and watching her rope bad guys with her golden lasso fulfilled some sort of hot chick, dominatrix fetish fantasy. Wonder Woman may be a girl, but her audience was never really comprised of women. Sure women may tune in from time to time, just as women go see movies like Spider-Man and The Dark Knight. But they are not and never will be the primary audience for those films. Catching bad guys is not a common female fantasy. Ask most women which movies they’re most looking forward to in 2009 and odds are that it’ll be something starring Julia Roberts. Ask men what they’re most looking forward to, and I guarantee Julia’s name will not be uttered.

There’s nothing wrong with that. Men and women simply have different interests. Men are interested in action movies with heroes blowing things up and saving the girl. Men are interested in imagining themselves as ass-kicking heroes. Women are interested in movies about relationships and romance and love. Women are interested in imagining themselves finding the right guy and dancing till dawn. Little boys play with guns, little girls play with dolls. Neither version of play is superior to the other, it’s just different. Nobody is out there trying to force men to get interested in movies about romantic weekends in Paris, so why are we so dead set on forcing women to get interested in movies about beating people up? There’s something unintentionally sexist about it, it’s as if we’re saying women’s interests are somehow inherently inferior, and to be validated they must instead find ways to be more like men.

Really, I don't think I can add anything to this.  He digs his own grave better than I ever could.  I particularly like how I can only like actiony stuff because I'm trained to think male interests are superior.  Is that why the mid-battle makeout session in Willow has been permanently inprinted in my brain as OMG BEST THING EVER since I was 5?

Except maybe for this:  Regarding Wonder Woman, his comments remind me of something I heard about Torchwood a while back.  The gist of it was that a lot of women watched Torchwood and stuck with Jack Harkness because they liked slash and they liked SFF, and Torchwood was the only thing on TV that they had where there was overlap in canon.  I like Wonder Woman-both the character (all three characters to use the name in the current canon, actually) for a lot of reasons.  I like their personalities, I like the history and mythology that comes with them, I like their cultures, and I seeing their reactions and interactions with the society outside of their worlds.  But you know what else I like?  Even if the starts sucking, Wonder Woman isn't going anywhere.  Wonder Woman merchandise makes DC scads of money, or so I'm told.  Part of the contract is that DC can't go longer than a certain period of time without publishing a comic with the words "Wonder Woman" in the title.  Wonder Woman is the only superhero comic I can rely on to feature a woman as a lead character.  Other superhero series have main characters who are female, but not the main character.

See also why a chunk of the shounen crowd thinks Norihiro Yagi hung the moon.  We will forgive him anything because he gave us a shounen series all avbout how stupid other shounen is with it's excuses for sidelining female characters.

Incidentally, the above article was the writer's way of saying that two women requesting superhero movies for girls were silly for wanting such things, because no one wants that.

A few pertinent quote from the second:

Male superheroes are great and I’ll watch as many movies about them as the studios can shell out, but at the same time, attending the very same movies to see women reduced to the obligatory role of shrieking damsel in distress has been less than inspiring. Not to mention how it must look to the outside community to have the most powerful geeks in the business regressing to their no girls allowed stage. It’s not too late to right this wrong, Comic-book movies are more popular than ever now, and there has never been a better time to include strong females into the equation.

......

There are so many amazing female characters in the Batman universe yet none of them seemed interesting enough to include in the otherwise brilliant Batman Begins. Granted, the inclusion of Rachel Dawes paid off big time in The Dark Knight, but you have to admit, the first time around she was a bit of a head scratcher. Why not Talia Al Ghul? She could have been a much more compelling love interest for the first movie. Adaptations don’t have to be exactly like the comics, but they do serve the purpose of effectively capturing characters we love and putting them on screen, so why ignore the women?

......

Well, he gave the ladies powers in the X-Men series, he just forgot the personalities. He turned the sexy, sassy southern belle Rogue into a mopey teenager, the diabolical Mystique into a naked mute, and the strong, regal storm into Halle Berry. If you’re going to take liberties with classic characters, why would you choose to make them less interesting? While the male characters got fully fleshed out personas for the most part, every female character got a moody emo-bitch makeover, Jean Grey is the only character that came away unscathed, but she was already a moody emo-bitch to begin with.

P.S.-Dear Josh Tyler:  Do you know why we didn't go see My Super-Hero Ex-Girlfriend?  Because not only did it look like it sucked, but we asked for a super-heroine and they told us we could only have her if she was an obsessive stalker who couldn't live without a man.

Comments

[animeshon.livejournal.com]

Sadly to a certain extent I think some of what he says has a point. Or at least the bit about the majority of the audience being male. I think this is becoming less and less as women are becoming more interested in what was for so long a male dominated culture. Especially now that it is becoming less and less of a stigma to be a girl who reads comics. I know when I was a teenager, it was OK for the nerdy guys to play D&D and read comics, but me as a girl who has fashion sense (admitably 90s fashion sense) and didn't look like a geek it was a real issue for people to find out I read comics. These days however I get less stares and then "really"s and more "cools". I'm still the only girl I know (in person) who reads comics however.

Hopefully we will be able to overturn the prevalent misogyny and get a female superhero who is awesome and is portrayed as awesome in a movie where she's not reduced to a sidekick. Which seems to always happen!

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

The thing is that he seems to be implying that it's unnatural for women to like "guy" things, or guys to like "girl" things, and that it should be assumed that women won't like those things unless we're forced to, and that if we do like them, it's beacuse we think liking "girl" things is inferior. I can't just like action, I only like it because I feel inderior to men.

[seven-trees.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, I read this yesterday and couldn't stop ranting. Dear god, what is wrong with this guy? I don't know if I can effectively express how frustrated this makes me. Why are there people who think all women are born with a chip in their brain that tells them: must only like dolls, rom-coms, and thinking about luuuurve.

Women aren't programmed robots. They can like anything they want to. When I was a kid I liked Barbies, but I was a total spaz about Xena. In my mind, I was Xena, kicking ass and taking names--because I have varied interest. JUST LIKE ALL OTHER PEOPLE IN THE WORLD. My mind is not centered on romance and finding "the one" just because I have a vagina.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Uhm...my Barbies were always getting kidnapped by my brother's pilfered G.I. Joes, and then rescued by other Barbies, or kicking the G.I. Joes into submission. I have no idea what that says about me.

And I was annoyed that my Barbies couldn't have guns and swords.

But what really gets to me is when he basically says that women who like "male" interests like them because they think there's something inferior about "female" interests, and that our pretty little heads shouldn't be pressured like that.

[kakkobean.livejournal.com]

If you’re going to take liberties with classic characters, why would you choose to make them less interesting? While the male characters got fully fleshed out personas for the most part, every female character got a moody emo-bitch makeover, Jean Grey is the only character that came away unscathed, but she was already a moody emo-bitch to begin with.

SO. FUCKING. TRUE.

*RAGES*

Ugh--and who's a guy to say that women don't occasionally feel the urge to dish out some pain to the bad guys? He's obviously never met my entourage who want all rapists/child molesters to be castrated.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yup. When we complain about these movies, we aren't complaining that there aren't enough make out sessions, we're complaining that we either only get girlfriends, or we only get watered down heroines treated as secondary.

Know the main reason I haven't watched Dark Knight yet? Because they said I can never have Batgirl, because this Batman will be retiring by the time she decides to wear tights.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Man. Sorsha/Madmartigan. Sigh. I personally believe the two of them run around being mercenaries and bickering and such.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I've always been convinced that they ask Willow to come back to the castle "because Elora wants to see you" and then run off for a few months.

[madame-manga.livejournal.com]

Ye gods, that almost sounds like a parody of classic clueless guy assumptions. Has he ever listened to an actual woman talk about fandom?

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

A few try in the comments. He tells them they don't count. I also like how the entire premise is his explaining to 2 women who like superhero comics and want more superheroines on the big screen that they don't matter.

[escalove.livejournal.com]

According to him your the exception and thus do not count.

That guy is an idiot. He commented on the first one, all about only the men can save those movies. No, Terminator and Alien could never have worked if it was just women, it is all about the boys, whereas as I feel that those two movies disprove his notion. People can and will go see women as lead heroes and it isn't a gamble like everyone seems to think it is.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I think the thing he missed is that those movies got big BECAUSE they were about a woman in an action role. Well, and Arnold. But notice how no one ever talks about his character, just Sarah.

[la-vie-noire.livejournal.com]

Wow. Just... wow. I... just have no words about his stupidity, ignorance and arrogance. Way to be a sexist asshole, whathisname.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Josh Tyler. I'm remembering it just in case.

[logically.livejournal.com]

I'd have been a happier person had I not read those paragraphs of idiocy.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I must share pain. Sorry.

[miyuki-mina.livejournal.com]

... wtffffff.

*mind boggles* *goes read shonen manga AND eat chocolate, natch*

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yup.

[advance.livejournal.com]

Those quotes said almost everything I wanted to say. Of course you know the worst part about this whole thing? Is that if you brought your views to this person, I doubt they'd listen to you because you're a woman. If it was a man sticking up for the female characters I'm sure so serious debate would occur. If it's a woman 90% of the time the debate is 'You were a tomboy weren't you?'

Because supposedly woman who like to be girly are not allowed to read comic books.. -.-

*goes back to reading Robin and Spider-man -...-*

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yeah. If you read the comments, it's pretty clear that he dismisses anything a silly female might say.

[octopedingenue]

"Spidey's audience "broke down to about 53% male, 47% female," says Robert Bucksbaum of box office tracker Reel Source Inc," and I'm sure all those ladies were there on heterosexual dates with the 53%.

Except me, and the 7 times I saw it by myself or with my mom. Well, once I took my dad.

[advance.livejournal.com]

*SNORT* Sorry to break in but your comment made me snort.

[heavensgardener.livejournal.com]

*brain just broken. really really broken*

[mystickeeper.livejournal.com]

WHAT. I JUST.....WHAT.

I seriously don't even know what to say. I'll be leaving this fucker some comments!

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

He'll just tell you that you're abnormal and don't exist.

[ivy-chan.livejournal.com]

Yeeeeeah. I have this argument many times with guy friends. What makes it more frustrating is that I am an asexual tomboy, and therefore I am not allowed to represent the majority of women, who are straight and what mainstream defines as 'feminine'. If I say: "I never felt like that," I am told that it's all because I'm asexual/tomboy. Which implies that my lack of a sex drive and my interest in the traditionally masculine makes me less than a woman. WHICH ENRAGES ME.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yup. No matter how many women say it, we're just not normal and can't be an example.

[laura-holt-pi.livejournal.com]

I agree with you that most of that is sexist drivel, but I'm afraid I agree with him about Wonder Woman. It was devised by a man with a very odd attitude to women who expressed bondage fantasies in his work. I consider her a very unhealthy rolemodel for girls. She is a sex object.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Not for the last 30~ years. She was essentially reinvented by a man who thought the poterntial was being wasted and actually masde her a good character and role model.

[harukami]

sdfj; UGH.

...And here's what I don't get about the "male" interest things.

He says that these films are male interest because males are interested in them, right.

But then females say, "we're interested in them"

and he says, "Oh, that's because you find male things superior to female things."

...but they're only male interest things because males were interested in them, so -- the only reason is that it's all phallocentric to begin with?

I wonder what the hell's wrong with his mind.

I also kind of want to see him see people rip him a new one, because really, what.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yup. Being interested in things that don't fit his narrow gender views makes us objects of pity.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

I went WTF at the Julia Roberts comment, as that has never been a factor for me. I checked IMDB to see if I'd ever seen a Julia Roberts move, and it turns out I have -- she was Tinkerbell in 'Hook'.

"Adaptation that doesn't suck" is more of a factor, as there are very few original ideas in Hollywood that aren't utterly bland and forgettable, and the ones that don't butcher the original concept can be nice.

Is it girly to want enough character development to explain why the heck these characters are doing these things?

Oooh, idea! There's a way to get through to these guys.

Instead of claiming it's marketed towards girls, say it's marketed toward guys who like strong women. Point to Lara Croft, Buffy, and Wonder Woman. A girl who could kick your butt and look hot doing it = $$$. It's not marketed to strong women, it's marketed to guys who are self-aware and comfortable with the fact that they will never be an action hero.

I want to give the Foglios a bag of money and have them produce, if not a Girl Genius movie, then a film adaptation of the Cinderella story they just now completed because it's AWESOME and the girl blows stuff up and is in complete control.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

"Adaptation that doesn't suck" and "letting the girls be there for more than to be pretty." I sincerely hope that, when the Wonder Woman movie comes out, it does insanely well, even if I hate it.

I mean, sure, we'll be told that it was a fluke that women went to see it and that it only sold because whatever actress they cast looks hot in the costume, but at least we'd have it.

[lostopenwindows.livejournal.com]

Sorsha and Madmartigan IS the best thing ever! I need to watch Willow again.

You voice my exact thoughts about My Super Ex-Girlfriend.

And now I'm going to go and hug my Birds of Prey comics.

[radiotrash.livejournal.com]

Oh lord, I'm reading through the comments and his replies and someone brought up Buffy. "Buffy and Dark Angel were not huge successes." "" Buffy was a niche show with a very small devoted audience."

Yes, that is why Buffy ran for seven seasons and Angel for five and now they both have their own comic series continuing the story. Bwah?

And hello Xena?

I love my male superheroes but I would KILL for a good female superhero movie.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

And most Angel fans seem to look at Angel as an excuse for Cordy, Fred, Lilah, Illyria, and Faith...

[mycenae.livejournal.com]

Deleted my last comment, because I realized something that long and wanky belonged in my own journal, not yours. Thanks for the link, though! I... guess thanks is the right word. :)

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I'm actually curious to see how he responds to your comment he seems to have 2 modes of reply. Interpretting your comment as complete agreement, or dismissing it.

[nebulia.livejournal.com]

Okay, I get that men and women are different, yeah. But not all women like playing with dolls, and not all men like playing with guns. My boy cousin and I would play dressup and then go conquer the world as the princess and her faithful knight. XD I didn't just play with dolls, I also went out and played cops and robbers. Yeah, men and women are different, but you're (as in this Josh Tyler dude) forcing both sexes into a box that they don't fit into.

And the comic book thing is downright ridiculous. One of my best friends is in love with comics, and here (http://shananagin.livejournal.com/113147.html#cutid1) is her list for her femslash porn battle. And from what I've learned by talking to her, those are all strong, tough characters who actually do things. Dude, Josh Tyler, what the fuck.

D

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

You know, when I let 7 nursery kids loose in a playroom with (among other things) dolls, a kitchen, a workshop, and trains, they usually don't go for the gender-approved toys. They go for whatever they want.

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

I came this way via mystickeeper and went and read the article.

After I stopped laughing I left a comment, which I think may have been removed. I'm 43 years old, so for me, people like Josh Tyler are very familiar which is probably why I mocked him a little.

Damn, now I'm disappointed that it's not there.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Maybe it just hasn't been posted yet? I thought about leaving a comment, but didn't feel like registering just to tell him he's an idiot.

[the-sun-is-up.livejournal.com]

Are we sure this isn't meant as a satire? Are we sure??? It sounds like a parody! A parody of what sexist people think but never actually say because it is SO FUCKING STUPID!!! Ugh not enough "Fuck you with something hard and sandpapery" in the world.

[the-sun-is-up.livejournal.com]

Also the rather enormous readership of Claymore, who are responsible for making the series the 9th most popular series on OneManga, would like to have a word with this gentleman. And by "have a word" I mean "kick the living shit out of."

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yeah, pretty much.

[hakucho-cygnus.livejournal.com]

Hello; hope that you don't mind me dropping in from scans_daily. :)

Interestingly, in high school some of my male peers ridiculed me for reading comic books if they had sexy female characters. One girl (a friend) hated them, but because she saw them as deficient and lowbrow; having no place among "true literature" like the prose novel (and before her, one girl I knew felt that comics were a guy-only thing). In that respect, it seems to be a much more complex issue (if mainly to a certain degree)...

In turn, it personally doesn't bother me as a whole, whether the character I read about in mainstream or non-mainstream comics is a leading man or woman. Like you said above in your response, what draws me to them aren't things that are stereotypically gender-based but whether I like their personalities or if the story they're in is very engaging to me. That said, I certainly don't mind if the character I read about is someone I can admire or relate to - case in point, my favourite comic strip Nemi (http://www.metro.co.uk/nemi), which stars a leading woman who is concerned with her love life and does like dresses, but she is also an avid nerd and fangirl enthusiast. One of the themes of the strip is the expectations of femininity and womanhood, and her and her friend's reactions in dealing with them is one that I feel accurately (if only from my experiences, and not universally) represents some of the issues that women encounter today. Granted, the strip isn't everyone's cup of tea, but thought I'd just mention it there.

Also, a question: you've mentioned Norihiro Yagi in your post and how he doesn't sideline female characters. Can I ask for an example of how he does this, please?

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Hiii! Yeah, I wouldn't have posted the link in my comment if I had any problems with people dropping in. The more the merrier.

Norihiro Yagi is the mangaka of Claymore, a shounen manga. I have no idea how familiar you are with manga and manga terms, so i'm just going to assume relative unfamiliarity as I find that's usually safer. Shounen manga is manga aimed at 10-14~ year old boys and tends to have huge casts and endless powerups and fights. The casts tend to be predominantly male, and typically, the female characters get sidelined from the action, usually because their "special skill" isn't as action orientated as that oof the males. Claymore is a shounen where about 90% of the cast is female, and the basic concept is that that world's warriors are all women because men can't safely undergo the process to make them capable of fighting monsters. There's more to it thanthat, of course, but that's the initial setup. Many of the characters, though, are given the same skills that get girls in other shounen sidelined, and those abilities are often the most badass ones in the series. The closest thing I have to a pusher post is here: http://meganbmoore.livejournal.com/713088.html

I read a lot of manga, a lot of comics (though I'm very behind on comics, as Marvel and DC have been annoying me the last few years) and a lot of sff. if I'm not reading those, then I'm probably reading a mystery novel or a romance novel. So basically, pretty much everything I read is looked down on by "intellectual" quarters, and a large chunk of it isn't what girls are "supposed" to read. My brother and I started reading comics when I was 12 and he was 9. He thought he'd "outgrown" them by the time he was 14. I'm still reading them at 28.