Skip it if you're tired of it.
Feb. 1st, 2009 03:06 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
meganbmooreDisjointed ramblings regarding gender (and some on race) ahead.
So, at lunch today, Mom and I somehow ended up talking about about children's toys. Likely because she helped me out in the church nursery today, and Jackson will be staying with them next weekend. I mentioned that i'd also looked at the toys for little girls when I'd been shopping for Jackson's Christmas and birthday gifts, and I'd noticed that there didn't seem to be many action figures for little girls*, but that I remembered there being action figures for little girls when I was a kid. At that point, with no prompting at all, she said (in that parent voice that says "this was annoying to live with, but I'm glad I have the memories") "She-Ra! By the power of...Greyskull!"
Then I asked what action figures Myles always had and what shows he watched, and she rattled off He-Man, Ninja Turtles, Thundercats, G.I.Joe and a couple others whose names I've forgotten. I asked if she remembered any of the lines there, but all she remembered was that Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles made him obsessed with cheese pizza. I don't think this means that she liked She-Ra more, just that I ran around the house yelling one thing all the time, while he ran around yelling half a dozen things. (ETA: But with equal amounts of actual yelling going on. Sorry, i'm still giggling a bit at my mother's "By the power of Greyskull!" Also, she spoiled the second of Alexander McCall Smith's Precious Ramotswe books. As I have been put in charge of acquiring them for her since we're both reading them, I shall just have to make sure she doesn't read them before me!)
And while I was typing that paragraph, I got a phone call asking to speak with "a male registered voter." I asked for a repeat, and then clarfied "you are saying a male registered voter, right?" He said yes. I said there were none, and then he asked if I was a registered voter. When I asked why he asked for a man if he could talk to me, he stuttered and then started to say something about equal polling. I hung up. I can get polls specifically aimed at either gender, but only wanting to talk to me if there isn't a guy in the house? I don't think so.
Anyway, during that conversation (at lunch, the phone call was just amazingly well timed), something clicked for why some of the things I've linked to lately-specifically Whines When Girls Smoke, Flirt, Shoot, And Fly Fighter Planes and Says Girls Don't Like Action Things Unless They Feel Inferior To Men-seem worse than your run-of-the-mill stupidity. Both put themselves forth as wanting fiction for women and female roles...as long as those roles and those pieces of fiction are "approved." Give us fiction meant for women and give us female characters, but keep them separate, away from things men might like. Don't let female characters do things male characters have always done. Keep them in their proper place. Prominent women, central women, are ok as long as it doesn't affect male domination in anything outside of traditional roles or certain types of fiction. Roles and genres approved of as being ok for women.
Specifically, it makes me think of Separate But Equal. I don't know if what I'm referring to is as well known by that term outside of the U.S., so for anyone who doesn't want to click that link and doesn't immediately know what I mean, it refers to segragation laws in the U.S. that where black people and white people were given public services (public restrooms, schools, public transportation, water fountains, etc.) but there were different services available to you based on the color of your skin. It gave black people "rights," but the services given to them were vastly inferior to those given to white people.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not comparing representation of gender in fiction to generations of racism and segregation (though it is a result of generations of sexism) but I do think there's similar thinking going on. It's easy to say "I'm not sexist, I just think men and women are different and should be treated as such," just like it's easy to say "I'm not racist, I just think blacks and whites are different and should be treated as such." And usually, people who say it genuinely mean it, and will loudly protest against something they see that's glaringly sexist or racist. At the same time, though, there are many forms of sexism and racism that aren't obvious, and that have always been treated as "natural." These forms are the kind people argue against and are afraid to admit to, because they tend to challenge their worldview, and threaten them with having to examine their own privilege. It's why no one likes to have something they like criticized, because that criticism might make them admit there could be a flaw, and then there's the fear that they could be "wrong" for liking it.
This is also why people get accused of seeing racism and/or sexism everywhere. Some people do that. Most accused of it don't. It's just that, once you start to become aware of the fact that there are prejudices and inequalities in fiction beyond the obvious ones that everyone can recognize, you start to see how prominent those problems are, and how they're often the default. But I think you're much more likely to find a person who refuses to admit there might be a problem with something because they fear that doing so will challenge them than you are to find a person actively looking for things to complain about.
No one is saying that every good heroine has to shoot guns/swing a sword and be better at it than men or it's sexist, or that the only strong female character is a man with breasts, and no one is saying that a princess is automatically a weak character or that the girl next door is useless. (Ok, some do, but we try to ignore them.) We're just saying that it'd be nice if it were considered normal for women to have those roles in addition to more traditional roles-just like men can be politicians, scholars, warriors, etc. without it being unusual-unless it's a situation (pregnancy, WWII battlefield, etc.) where there's no way it could happen.
*Mind you, there may be some and I just didn't see them, or they may have been in the rows of action figures for little boys and I just missed them due to their being outnumbered 40-to-1.
So, at lunch today, Mom and I somehow ended up talking about about children's toys. Likely because she helped me out in the church nursery today, and Jackson will be staying with them next weekend. I mentioned that i'd also looked at the toys for little girls when I'd been shopping for Jackson's Christmas and birthday gifts, and I'd noticed that there didn't seem to be many action figures for little girls*, but that I remembered there being action figures for little girls when I was a kid. At that point, with no prompting at all, she said (in that parent voice that says "this was annoying to live with, but I'm glad I have the memories") "She-Ra! By the power of...Greyskull!"
Then I asked what action figures Myles always had and what shows he watched, and she rattled off He-Man, Ninja Turtles, Thundercats, G.I.Joe and a couple others whose names I've forgotten. I asked if she remembered any of the lines there, but all she remembered was that Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles made him obsessed with cheese pizza. I don't think this means that she liked She-Ra more, just that I ran around the house yelling one thing all the time, while he ran around yelling half a dozen things. (ETA: But with equal amounts of actual yelling going on. Sorry, i'm still giggling a bit at my mother's "By the power of Greyskull!" Also, she spoiled the second of Alexander McCall Smith's Precious Ramotswe books. As I have been put in charge of acquiring them for her since we're both reading them, I shall just have to make sure she doesn't read them before me!)
And while I was typing that paragraph, I got a phone call asking to speak with "a male registered voter." I asked for a repeat, and then clarfied "you are saying a male registered voter, right?" He said yes. I said there were none, and then he asked if I was a registered voter. When I asked why he asked for a man if he could talk to me, he stuttered and then started to say something about equal polling. I hung up. I can get polls specifically aimed at either gender, but only wanting to talk to me if there isn't a guy in the house? I don't think so.
Anyway, during that conversation (at lunch, the phone call was just amazingly well timed), something clicked for why some of the things I've linked to lately-specifically Whines When Girls Smoke, Flirt, Shoot, And Fly Fighter Planes and Says Girls Don't Like Action Things Unless They Feel Inferior To Men-seem worse than your run-of-the-mill stupidity. Both put themselves forth as wanting fiction for women and female roles...as long as those roles and those pieces of fiction are "approved." Give us fiction meant for women and give us female characters, but keep them separate, away from things men might like. Don't let female characters do things male characters have always done. Keep them in their proper place. Prominent women, central women, are ok as long as it doesn't affect male domination in anything outside of traditional roles or certain types of fiction. Roles and genres approved of as being ok for women.
Specifically, it makes me think of Separate But Equal. I don't know if what I'm referring to is as well known by that term outside of the U.S., so for anyone who doesn't want to click that link and doesn't immediately know what I mean, it refers to segragation laws in the U.S. that where black people and white people were given public services (public restrooms, schools, public transportation, water fountains, etc.) but there were different services available to you based on the color of your skin. It gave black people "rights," but the services given to them were vastly inferior to those given to white people.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not comparing representation of gender in fiction to generations of racism and segregation (though it is a result of generations of sexism) but I do think there's similar thinking going on. It's easy to say "I'm not sexist, I just think men and women are different and should be treated as such," just like it's easy to say "I'm not racist, I just think blacks and whites are different and should be treated as such." And usually, people who say it genuinely mean it, and will loudly protest against something they see that's glaringly sexist or racist. At the same time, though, there are many forms of sexism and racism that aren't obvious, and that have always been treated as "natural." These forms are the kind people argue against and are afraid to admit to, because they tend to challenge their worldview, and threaten them with having to examine their own privilege. It's why no one likes to have something they like criticized, because that criticism might make them admit there could be a flaw, and then there's the fear that they could be "wrong" for liking it.
This is also why people get accused of seeing racism and/or sexism everywhere. Some people do that. Most accused of it don't. It's just that, once you start to become aware of the fact that there are prejudices and inequalities in fiction beyond the obvious ones that everyone can recognize, you start to see how prominent those problems are, and how they're often the default. But I think you're much more likely to find a person who refuses to admit there might be a problem with something because they fear that doing so will challenge them than you are to find a person actively looking for things to complain about.
No one is saying that every good heroine has to shoot guns/swing a sword and be better at it than men or it's sexist, or that the only strong female character is a man with breasts, and no one is saying that a princess is automatically a weak character or that the girl next door is useless. (Ok, some do, but we try to ignore them.) We're just saying that it'd be nice if it were considered normal for women to have those roles in addition to more traditional roles-just like men can be politicians, scholars, warriors, etc. without it being unusual-unless it's a situation (pregnancy, WWII battlefield, etc.) where there's no way it could happen.
*Mind you, there may be some and I just didn't see them, or they may have been in the rows of action figures for little boys and I just missed them due to their being outnumbered 40-to-1.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2009-02-03 04:59 pm (UTC)And then you apparently decided that this post, which is unrelated, was about you as well, and brought the same "insecure" "irrational" and "seeing sexism everywhere" arguments in.
If you still can't see where you might have been in the wrong, then no, there is no point in talking about anything anymore. And frankly, I can't think of a conversation we've had in a long time that didn't center around your telling me that I was wrong about something because I'm insecure/naive/overly idealistic/etc.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-03 09:01 pm (UTC)I said you were missing the main point of an article due to a certain part of it sounding sexist. That's how it all started, with me admitting there was a sexist comment there. And the point of the discussion was NOT for you to admit you were wrong about anything, but trying to see if - despite certain phrasings - there was any validity to ACTUAL main points of said article. In your opinion, that is.
Beyond that, you keep trying to tell me to look at things from your perspective, and insist that there are forms of sexism that aren't as obvious as some. So I say okay, give me a less obvious example. Boom! Logic trap?!
I see it as the verbalization of different points of view for mutual enlightenment. You see it as me trying to prove you wrong. Too bad.