Naruto/shounen pondering

[meganbmoore]

So,octopedingenueis kicking offreread_no_jutsu, a community whose description reads "It's like Fight Club, only more Book Group. Because the only thing better than reading ten years' and 400+ chapters' worth of babyninja punching each other is figuring out why we'd do it all over again."

I'm not participating because until I whittle down the backlog and catch up with various series, I'm not allowed to reread Basara Blade of the Immortal Fullmetal Alchemist Claymore Cantarella xxxHolic/Tsubasa Skip-Beat manga I really really like, much less a series that I dropped a good while back. I'll be following the discussions, though. That does create the threat of my being swallowed up in a deep dark hole of moral shame and guilt that I read about 15 volumes further in scanslations than what I bought of the licensed volumes, but I shall attempt to be strong.

As a frame of reference for how far I got/how long it's been, when I stopped it was somewhere around or just past Vol 30 in Japan, and Viz was about a month into "Let's spam the US market by releasing for volumes a month AND ALL FOUR VOLUMES THE SAME DAY!" (I have no idea if they're still doing that, or doing it again.) The last thing I remember happening was (assume this could be as far into the series as about Vol 35...and I could be thinking I read further than I did) Sakura, Naruto, Sai and their teacher had run into Sasuke. About a dozen or so chapters after that. Sai, IIRC, had played some sort of fanservice to slash fans.

 

Now, here's the thing. All shounen has some serious problems going on regarding gender. Even Claymore and Fullmetal Alchemist, the two series that seem to have largely ruined me for any shounen that I wasn't already attached to, have problems. But I am, in general, more lenient with shounen than I am shoujo. The target audience for most shounen is 13-15 year old boys. Their main interest in plopping down their allowance every week for Shounen Jump is reading about a couple guys going "And now...I will show you my TRUE power/SECRET move/etc!!" "Writing for the target audience" doesn't absolve a series of any problems it has, but it is an important consideration, and it's why I can get past things that would normally (and sometimes still do) irritate me in Samurai Deeper Kyo, Kekkaishi, Black Cat, Bleach (sometimes) and various other shounen I read/have read but aren't jumping to the front of my head at the moment. And though the line between them can be difficult to see, there is a difference between focusing on your main character and sidelining a character, and when you pick up a shounen action series, you're most likely getting a series where most of the attention will be on variations of certain, primarily male, character sets. It's pretty much an inherent part of the genre, and one that, if it doesn't work for you, largely guarantees that the series will just irritate you.


 

 

Naruto, though, always bugged me more than other series when it came to female characters, and I think it's because of this: Is there something in the DNA of every ninja tribe in that world that results EXACTLY one girl for every two boys born every year, stretching back at least 50-60 years? Is there some sort of law in every tribe that says each and every team (though there might have been teams introduced later, or that weren't around long enough for me to remember them that upset the formula) must have exactly 2 boys and 1 girl? Why are there no teams with 2 girls and 1 boy? All boy teams? All girl teams?

In theory, the numbers themselves should put Naruto a step ahead of other shounen simply because having 1/3 of your cast be female in the typical "cast of thousands" makes you female character outnumber those in other series about 5:1, proportionately. And yet, it's so exact, so deliberate, that "one girl for every two boys" can't be anything but a conscious decision. And when it's so conscious, it makes the treatment of gender stand out all the more. And then there's the fact that, in this world, almost every character the same age has near identical levels of training and experience. There's no variety. In personality and individual specialty, yes. But as presented, every character of the same age (with the exception of characters like Sasuke and Gaara) should be on equal footing, with some allowances made for personal strengths and weaknesses. In another shounen, you'll have a character with little or no training or powers, one who is new but who has enormous training, and two who are experienced fighters. That the only girl of the four is the one with no powers or training is a problem, and not one that should be dismissed, but it is a textual reason for the girl to not be in the middle of the fight with that arc Big Boss. With Naruto, however, that isn't there. The girl in question has as much training and experience as the three boys. Yet she's still the one sitting it out or fighting a lesser opponent while the boys are fighting the arc's Big Boss. So while I get grumpy that Yuya/Okuni/Mahiro/Orihime/Tatsuki/Tokine/etc. isn't on a par with the boys in terms of getting to fight and win fights, and can at least follow along with the why of it as presented by the manga. But with Sakura/Hinata/Ino/etc., I'm left with the feeling that Kishimoto is standing there going "look, I gave you exactly one girl for every two boys...do you really expect me to actually give them something to do in addition to existing?" (Plus, other shounen tends to at least let them have goals and motivations and backgrounds and lives separate from the guys, and the only female character I can think of in Naruto that that applies to is Tsunade.) 
 
And so I have made my yearly or so post on Naruto. (You know, when I was reading the series, I knew about 3 people who read it. Now I see at least 1 post a day on it, usually more. And that was before the idea of the community started to be tossed around.)

Please use the spoiler code for any spoilers. I know at least one person on the f-list is currently reading Naruto for the first time, and others are are playing catchup forreread_no_jutsu . Spoiler code:

<span style="color: #333333;background-color: #333333">Spoilers here.</span>

P.S.: You almost got a huge rant because LJ ate this!  But then LJ gave it back, so it's ok.

P.P.S.:  I swear I used to have a Naruto tag, but it seems to be gone.  *makes new one*

 

Comments

[worldserpent.livejournal.com]

s there something in the DNA of every ninja tribe in that world that results EXACTLY one girl for every two boys born every year, stretching back at least 50-60 years?

I just figured that the rest of the girls didn't become ninjas, but did something else.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

As near as I can tell, no one in the ninja villages DOES anything else. Going to ninja school seems to be like normal public school in the US.

[worldserpent.livejournal.com]

Heh, this seems like the HP problem of the demographic math for the Hogwarts student body not working out, though at least there there didn't seem to be an obvious gender ratio problem.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I've only seen the first few HP movies so I don't know much abou tthe demographic math problems, but I certainly don't remember seeing the students grouped in exactly 2 boys and 1 girl units. (Except, you know, the main three...)

[the-sun-is-up.livejournal.com]

tl;dr: NARUTO FAILS EPICALLY AT GENDER AND I AGREE AND WTF WHY AM I STILL READING THIS SERIES. OKAY I KNOW WHY. IT IS BECAUSE I AM WEAK. :(((

Someone, and actually it might have been you, accurately observed that Kishimoto seems to treat his female characters like a necessary evil. Grrr.

Though Naruto's "two boys for each girl" problem also bothered me in Bleach. Why are there so few female shinigami? Why are all but two of them lieutenants? Even in the flashbacks, the three female vizards were all lieutenants. Especially since shinigami skill is (correct me if I'm wrong) predicated on spiritual energy level and not physical strength? And if the female shinigami are equal to the males, why do they get so little pagetime compared to the men? Sorry to keep harping on Bleach, but I find it nearly as problematic as Naruto when it comes to gender. Certainly KT is not as systematic about it as Kishimoto, but the result is the same.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

It may have been me who said that, but I think I've seen it from others, too.

I think the systematic approach in Naruto actually makes it worse, because it comes across as the mangaka deliberately doing it and NOT CARING, as opposed to reacting to what the fans are requesting. Bleach definitely has it's fare share (and then some) of problems, but Tite Kubo comes across as actually interested in doing things with his female characters, as opposed to putting them forward as tokens. But the thing about the pagetime is that it is written for a target audience, and that target audience is...the opposite of the two of us. Which doesn't make it ok or any less problematic, but it is a part of the genre.

[telophase.livejournal.com]

(Coming in much later, after meganbmoore crossposted to reread_no_jutsu)

And if you look at the two female Captains in Bleach, one is the Healing Captain and the other is the Sneak Around Sneakily Captain (heir to the previous female Sneak Around Sneakily Like a Cat Captain). Stereotypes much?

(I really sort of want Yachiru to grow up and take over the 11th from Kenpachi.)

[jinian.livejournal.com]

Here for the same reason, about to post the same thing. We girls really are all alike!

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yeah, i'll never defend Bleach of being free of or only having minor gender issues or anything like that (I'd be concerned if someone did!) but it's never been as proud of them as Naruto.

[the-sun-is-up.livejournal.com]

Yeah and furthermore, the only female/female duo of captain and vice-captain is, predictably, the healing squad that everyone looks down on because they're shitty at fighting.

Oh man, I'd love to see Yachiru kick some butt, but again, like a lot of the ladies in Bleach, hers is an informed ability. We see hints that she has this massive power, but we never actually see her use it in battle. Close but no cigar, KT.

[octopedingenue]

I want you to repost this in the comm when we get to Genin teams, please please.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

REMIND ME!

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Is the latest post the part where I'm supposed to crosspost?

[octopedingenue]

Make it a new post of its own so it doesn't get lost in comment threads! (And so more people may understand that "Anyone can post about the topic, not just the assigned people" means "YES, YOU CAN POST SO THE COMM DOESN'T GO DEAD FOR THREE WEEKS.")

[octopedingenue]

Oh, maybe post it on, like, Tuesday? So we can space out/keep discussion going the whole week.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

PM me around then!

[anime-heart.livejournal.com]

I kind of assumed that failed ninja must become drs & lawyers and ramen shop owners, but the non-ninja economy as portrayed in the series is not particularly diverse, so I don't know. I mean, I don't even understand the different nations and the different villages.

Best just to ignore the world-building issues and bliss out on the flips and spins and jutsu and rasengan and giant toads, I think.

as for the gender ratio stuff, I expect he feels he did enough by making Tsunade one of the Big Three. BUT WAIT ...

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Tsunade/Jiraiyu/Oro-whatsit is proof that there have been exactly 2 male ninja for every female ninja for at least half a century. Which means either that there are specific quotas that must be met but cannot be exceeded by the villages (Institutionalized sexism!) or funkly genetics.

[havocthecat]

I don't read the manga, but Mr. Havoc watches the cartoon a lot, and OH GOD THANK YOU. A lot of the problems you talk about translate into the cartoon too.

I also have a hard time beating it into Mr. Havoc's skull that the girl getting to be the nurturing healer medical ninja is not, actually, giving her something awesome to do, because it's still stereotypical.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Tsunade and Sakura are, in theory, the two most powerful female characters. More powerful than most of the male characters, too. They are also largely defined as healers, and shown doing that.

There are much better shounen. Virtually any, really. How far have you gotten in Claymore? And have you started with Fullmetal Alchemist yet?

[havocthecat]

Okay, in theory, they're that powerful, but I keep seeing Sakura in peril and needing to be rescued, which was getting me really mad. Because, of course, while watching the show, I fell in love with the female characters. Partly because I want to smack Sasuke and Naruto a lot. They're the types of characters that irritate me. (Out of the guys, I mostly like Shikamaru best.)

I'm still holding at book 2 of Claymore. I need to get book 3, which means I need to request it from the local library. My book budget is pretty slim these days.

I've recently discovered that the library has at least the first 17 issues of Fullmetal Alchemist (out of I don't know how many), so I'll be picking those up soon.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I believe through vol 17 is all that's been released in the US so far of FMA. It does take a couple volumes to get going, but is one of the best.

[sarolynne.livejournal.com]

Oh, whatever, I'll just reply late.

While it's certainly not canon, I've theorized for quite a while that the Narutoverse does and is, to a degree, meant to show institutionalized sexism. Partly because the two to one ratio is so exact, and partly because the female students are actually trained differently. While it's not explored deeply, the flashbacks with Ino and Sakura show pretty explicitly that kunoichi are held to a different standard than their male peers, and the fact that Ino is the top kunoichi in their class implies a great deal about what the female students are valued for, since she's not a fighter and excels mostly (we're told) in techniques that aren't useful in direct combat. In her fight with Sakura, her big gambit was manipulative and relied on misdirection.

I also think that, again, while there's not a lot to work from, what we've seen could be read as implying that the system as it stands serves to make succeeding as a female ninja with less traditionally feminine skills more difficult. Otherwise, why would Ino rank above Sakura, who clearly knew the information they studied in the academy better, and who's praised for her control of chakra being at such an advanced level?

In that case, the reason why all of the teams have one, and only one girl, is because they need someone to be the kunoichi; presuming institutionalized sexism, it explains why teams with more than one female member are so rare (since they'd be considered redundant if they specialized in traditionally "masculine" skills), and also why female characters are often pushed toward support positions.

I, uh, plan on talking about that a little more when we get to Ino and Sakura's fight and flashback in the reread.

In any event, I don't know that it actually makes things better. It does, to a degree, for me. But that's a very personal reaction sort of thing, and YMMV. What's more, there's a lot of inferring going on here from relatively little canon. The biggest weakness in Naruto when it comes to gender is certainly the amount of representation the female characters get; while they are there, they tend to get less page time that the rest of the characters on their teams, and the manga itself remains firmly about boys, which means that one way or the other, there's very, very little information to draw on when it comes to them.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Based on my memories and what I hear from people who still read the series, if there is a deliberate commentary on institutionalized sexism going on, it supports it, at least in that situation. Even if it's "it sucks, but that's the way it is," then the reason it's that way is because Kishimoto made it tha way. His story isn't set in a world where he has to follow established rulles, but in a world where the only rules are the ones he created.

[sarolynne.livejournal.com]

I would disagree with the idea that if it exists, Kishimoto is supporting it. I don't necessarily like the idea that it's included as a characterizing detail; however, if the commentary is deliberate, then the institutionalized sexism is part of an explicitly flawed system.

That aside, and ignoring authorial intent, it does open the door to some actually very feminist readings, I think. Whether or not he could have left the sexism out (and yes, since the author is god, he could have) or it's meant to be endorsed or accepted, it's still a pretty good (read: realistic, if simplified, not positive) representation of institutionalized sexism, how that marginalizes and discourages girls, how that funnels them into acceptable areas, how it makes their inclusion formulaic and gendered, etc.