meganbmoore: (aeryn)
[personal profile] meganbmoore
I have, I think, figured out why I often find it hard to latch onto space scifi, or if I do latch on to it, to like it different reasons than others seem to. When I watch space scifi with humans and aliens, I seem to want to know more about the aliens, and less about the humans. It’s rather like how I like Crichton in Farscape, but often think of him as an excuse to have all the aliens, human looking and otherwise. The shows, however, seem to make the natural assumption that since I’m a human, I’m more interested in the humans. I don’t blame them, though that only seems to be true for me with Stargate: SG-1.

Babylon 5 is a classic 90s scifi series about a space station designed to help promote peace between all the known races in the mid-23rd century, created after a war between Earth and a race called the Minbari. I haven’t learned a lot of character and race names yet (almost too many characters to keep track of, and I’m bad with names to start with), so bear with me. Possibly the most striking thing about the series, watching it for the first time in 2008, is how incredibly dated the FX are. They’re pretty decent when it’s just the FX, but when it’s FX mixed with live action, you get things like the most hilarious lightning I’ve seen. So far, I find most of the episodic plots forgettable to ok enough. The characters and their stories, though, are largely engaging.

The alien preference seems to be holding steady, though, as the only human characters who’ve really caught my attention so far are Ivanova and the blonde telepath. Ivanova because she’s superstoic and I like stoic second-in-commands. The telepath because I find it interesting how she seems to dislike and fear the Psi-Corps, yet she also buys into their doctrine regarding behavior, and that telepaths are dangerous and must be controlled. I find Sinclair, Garibaldi, the doctor, and Sinclair’s girlfriend all to be perfectly fine, if a bit typical so far, but not as attention grabbing as those two, or the aliens.

But the aliens! I adore Londo, the loud ambassador with Shi’ar-like hair who seems to be a noisy braggart and more than a little ridiculous, but who’s also rather jaded to the world, and knows how to work systems to his end. Then there’s his opposite number, a lizard-like ambassador whose race seems to have been the enemy of Londo’s, and who is almost as much of a loud braggart, but who’s rather scheming and surprisingly thoughtful at times. I also really like his super-efficient and long suffering (even after just the first day on the job) Na’Toth, who is listed in the credits, but has only been in one episode so far. My favorite, though, is Delenn, the Zhaan-like representative of the Minbari, who keeps a lot of secrets, both about her own rank, and apparently about the war.

There are several things that jar me on the human/alien front. I get why they specifically refer to everything in Earth time, because all the races have different measurements of time, and they need something to all use, but some descriptions startle me. For example, at one point, Garibaldi, who’s a security officer, is asking an alien to describe someone, and asks if they were humanoid, or looked like an alien. I mean, for starters, he’s the alien to the person he was talking to, but the wording overall was weird. Then there’s the fact that it sometimes seems that the less human an alien looks, the more likely it is to be evil. The most “Uhm…what?” moment for me, though, is when there’s a firefight and Sinclair, Ivanova, and Random Helpless Alien Ambassador (RHAA) are being shot at. RHAA is shackled and doesn’t look like she can move very fast, while Sinclair and Ivanova are uninjured and not shacckled. So Sinclair covers Ivanova while the head for cover. Now, I strongly endorse Ivanova not getting shot and/or killed, but you know, she’s clearly very physically capable and wouldn’t be second-in-command if she couldn’t handle herself in a fight. If I were Sinclair, I’d be trusting her to get to cover while I helped RHAA. Instead, we see RHAA crawling for cover, and then she’s never seen again. And so I spent the next few minutes going “But what about poor RHAA? Was she shot? Is anyone going to unshackle her? Where’d she go?”

So, fun series so far, if mostly for the characters.

Date: 2009-04-07 03:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wintersweet.livejournal.com
I think that's how everyone feels about B5 in terms of the characters, haha. The aliens and Ivanova are win. At least, that's what I grasp from having seen some of it and having heard my husband talk about it. (He ... names things after it.) It's full of very good lines and I think I would have gotten really into it had I seen it at the time.

Date: 2009-04-07 03:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com
You mean I may actually be in agreement with fandom for once? (Ok, we aren't always as opposed as that makes it sound...)

But yeah, the humans are largely fun and all-I don't think there's a single important characer who isn't some degree and combination of likable and interesting-but the aliens are better.

You should watch for the lightning! Even though that ep was kinda bad...

Date: 2009-04-07 04:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wintersweet.livejournal.com
C. says Garibaldi may grow on you (and me). *G* But yes. I should watch more.

Date: 2009-04-07 04:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com
I find Garibaldi on the annoying side (though mostly for how it seems pushed that he's the clever and funny one) but I do like him. And I usually find him amusing, they just push it a bit at times.

Date: 2009-04-07 03:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coraa.livejournal.com
Londo, G'kar (the lizardlike opposite of Londo), Delenn, and Ivanova remain some of the most intriguing characters throughout, in my opinion.

Date: 2009-04-07 03:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com
That's good to hear.

Date: 2009-04-07 04:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wintersweet.livejournal.com
Heehee, great icon. (I do like Ivanova a lot, from what I've seen.)

Date: 2009-04-07 04:09 am (UTC)
pikabot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] pikabot
Part of the problem with the FX is that there were some major mastering issues when they were moving it onto DVD. Basically, they shot all the live-action stuff in widescreen, but due to budget only made the CG stuff in non-widescreen, because widescreen wasn't very prevalent back in the 90s. They figured that if they needed to, they could just take the CG models and redo it in widescreen later. Problem is, at some point betweenthen and when the DVD sets were released, the CG models got deleted. And they didn't have the money to completely redo it. So. You get that. You're right, it does look pretty hideous at times (although less so as the series progresses). I remember one shot where Ivanova's uniform turned bright green suddenly.

If you like the first season, just wait because the middle seasons of the show's run (2, 3, and 4) are absolutely amazing. Very tightly and intelligently plotted.

(And yes, Londo and G'kar are the bestest things ever)

Date: 2009-04-07 04:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com
To be fair to the show, it's not much worse than some other 90s FX, and better than some.

I love it when they fight! And how their assistants suffer so! And when G'Kar was tricked into helping Londo! (And I just realized...I think the first time that I heard about the series fannishly was someone explaining to me why they shipped them...I had no idea who they were talking about at the time, but I'm positive they were the icon...)

Date: 2009-04-07 04:21 am (UTC)
pikabot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] pikabot
Oh yeah, I love the assistants. Have you gotten to Delenn's aide Lennier yet? Because of the three, he's my favorite.

Date: 2009-04-07 04:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com
Is he the one that was kinda hero worshipping her and she told him to stop treating her like her real rank, because no one knew about that? If so, he was in one episode (the one with all the cultures' religions) but hasn't been seen since. Just like Na'Toth. But yeah, if that was him, I liked him.

Date: 2009-04-07 04:38 am (UTC)
pikabot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] pikabot
Yep, that's him. He gets seriously awesome in the later series.

Date: 2009-04-07 05:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coraa.livejournal.com
Yes! Lennier is one of the characters who develops the most, IMHO. (Ivanova, Delenn, Londo and G'Kar are also awesome, but they start out awesome, whereas Lennier and Vir start out humble and develop.)

Date: 2009-04-07 04:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coraa.livejournal.com
I agree -- I think the FX can be hard to get past, but if you can, the series reaches its peak from about halfway tbrough Season 2 to Season 4.

Date: 2009-04-07 04:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com
Sounds similar to Farscape.

Date: 2009-04-07 04:16 am (UTC)
ext_18106: (Default)
From: [identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com
As someone who grew up on Doctor Who and Blake's 7, I was always confused when people would say B5 had bad FX...

Date: 2009-04-07 04:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com
I have yet to see either of those...

Date: 2009-04-07 05:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coraa.livejournal.com
Well, it surely had excellent FX for 1995-ish -- when I was watching it air for the first time, I was v. impressed.. It just hasn't aged that well, and particularly didn't survive the transition to DVD all that well.

Date: 2009-04-07 04:20 am (UTC)
pikabot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] pikabot
I didn't have a problem with it at all, but that could be because I have an undying love for hard sci-fi and STARFURIES EEEEEEEEEEE

Date: 2009-04-07 05:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coraa.livejournal.com
I didn't have a problem with it at all when I first saw it, circa 1995-1998. And yes, yay Starfuries! It just didn't survive the transition to DVD all that well.

Date: 2009-04-07 04:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] annwyd.livejournal.com
I've never seen the first and fifth seasons (I'd like to sit down and watch the whole thing sometime); by all accounts the second through fourth seasons are much better.

Even with my limited knowledge, B5 is one of my favorite shows. And the characters--human and alien alike--just keep getting better. You'll find that the "human-like good, freaky-looking evil" thing outright reverses later, by the way, at least if I'm remembering correctly. Well, somewhat. It's more complicated than a simple dichotomy.

Londo and G'Kar remain one of the best relationships ever written for TV.

Date: 2009-04-07 04:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com
That's good to hear. It wasn't always prevalent, but there were a couple times that I felt like I could find out who to be suspicious of just by looking for the least human looking one.

Date: 2009-04-07 04:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] annwyd.livejournal.com
Now that I think about it...

While the show technically has two heroic Jesus figures, the one that sticks with most people is a very alien-looking alien.

Date: 2009-04-07 04:14 am (UTC)
ext_18106: (Default)
From: [identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com
<3 Ivanova and Delenn and the aliens. And... they tend to get into them a bit more than other shows do (at least, iirc, they do).

I have a soft spot for Sinclair, and while I like Garibaldi, he does bore me a bit (Catherine and the doctor, Franklin, are also pretty win).

But Londo and G'Kar? SUCH TOTAL AWESOME I HAVE NO WORDS.

Date: 2009-04-07 04:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com
Is Catherine around for a while, then? So far I like her, but she seems to be the girlfriend destined to be written out or something. (Not that I particularly wantthat, it's just the impression I get.)

Date: 2009-04-07 04:18 am (UTC)
ext_18106: (Default)
From: [identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com
Sadly, she is not around a lot. But she is sort of, of... Well, that. But awesome in her own way.

eta: sorry, I missed that you'd said 'written out' not 'never written except only occasionally'. It is late and I hadn't eaten dinner yet.

(and it might be Katherine. I'm too tired to check now)

Date: 2009-04-07 04:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] calliopepurple.livejournal.com
Ivanova has her reasons for what she thinks about the Psi-Corps. Pretty much everything in the first season will turn out to have a point, even things you'd totally forgotten about.

Dammit I need to watch this show again so hard that it hurts!

Date: 2009-04-07 05:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com
Ivanova's reasons were explained in the first episode. I approve of them. though it makes me concerned about Winters, as the last or next to last episode I saw had their enforcers.

Date: 2009-04-07 05:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kingcrankycat.livejournal.com
I used to enjoy watching this series when I came home from school (although it was aired wildly out of order, and thus was very confusing). From what I recall season 1 was my least favorite of the bunch, but it gets very good from season 2 onward when the story really gets going.

Londo and G'kar (I think? The guy from the race that Londo hates) develop into some really great characters, especially in and around season 4.

Date: 2009-04-07 05:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com
Yup, G'Kar's the one from the races Londo hates. All the gushing in comments has helped me to learn his name.

Date: 2009-04-07 05:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] foenix.livejournal.com
I think when you consider that B5 was a 90s show, on the cutting edge of tv CGI, and in syndication without the backing of a major network *and* still managed to come in under budget, those effects are pretty good. =)

And yes, the characters are amazing. That's the strength of Babylon 5, really. Most good shows, I guess. Hugely flawed, each and every one.

Garibaldi grows on you, I suspect. Or I just like the sarcasm. See also: Ivanova.

Date: 2009-04-07 07:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com
Oh yeah, thinking back to Hercules other things of roughly the same time, it's easy to see how the effects were pretty good then.

Date: 2009-04-07 06:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] heavensgardener.livejournal.com
Ivanova is win. Her awesomeness only increases exponentially as the show goes on.

Season 1 is really kind of slow. It really starts picking up around 2, but 5 is...not really that good, alas.

Date: 2009-04-07 07:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com
This seems to be the general consensus.

Date: 2009-04-08 09:02 pm (UTC)
ext_12512: Hinoe from Natsume Yuujinchou, elegant and smirky (Default)
From: [identity profile] smillaraaq.livejournal.com
Yeah, S5 is...not so much bad overall as it is just horribly, wildly uneven. There are some individual episodes that are as amazing and powerful as anything else ever done on the show in any season...then there are others where they're pretty obviously scrambling to fill in space in place of things that got shoved ahead back when they thought they were going to be cancelled a season early, and the new fill-in stuff just doesn't have the depth of pre-planning and foreshadowing that the best stuff in the earlier seasons did. (Also, some beloved characters are mostly out of the picture, and the new people who were brought in weren't generally as well-written, or as well-cast, as some of their predecessors, which did not help.)

Date: 2009-04-07 07:17 am (UTC)
ext_12512: Hinoe from Natsume Yuujinchou, elegant and smirky (Default)
From: [identity profile] smillaraaq.livejournal.com
When I watch space scifi with humans and aliens, I seem to want to know more about the aliens, and less about the humans. It’s rather like how I like Crichton in Farscape, but often think of him as an excuse to have all the aliens, human looking and otherwise.

It's not just you! The default Heroic Whitebread Manly-Man lead characters -- Kirk, Crichton, Sinclair, Dylan Hunt, etc. etc. etc., typically leave me utterly meh while I fixate on the supporting characters. And I can't vouch for the fandom as a whole as I never got into it enough to bother with stalking the newsgroups or fansites, but just amongst the handful of B5 fans I knew back in the day it definitely seemed to be Ivanova and the aliens leading the popularity lists. (As well they should!)

I always particularly adored Ivanova, and Talia, and Delenn, and G'Kar, and Londo -- tho' I did have a bit of a soft spot for Garibaldi since I have a weakness for snarky wiseass types. And a few other characters who I shall not name right now as they don't come along until later.

Season 1 really is pretty much the weakest part of the series, it had so much infodumping to do and things hadn't entirely gelled yet; if you're enjoying these earliest episodes that much, it bodes well for the middle seasons being even more enjoyable. And if you like Delenn and Ivanova now, I suspect you'll absolutely adore them as the show progresses and their characters are further developed.

Date: 2009-04-07 07:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com
I think Jack in SG-1 comes out ahead for me more as the standard lead because he's a bit older, and he's incredibly snarky. But the Dylan Hunt mention reminds me to watch Andromeda, too. Unless I'm getting my shows mixed up.

I like Garibaldi so far, but I think that, by virtue of his job, he defaults to being the one who says things that make me go "Huh?" the most. Like asking an alien if a huspect looked humanoid or alien.

Date: 2009-04-08 08:24 pm (UTC)
ext_12512: Hinoe from Natsume Yuujinchou, elegant and smirky (Default)
From: [identity profile] smillaraaq.livejournal.com
But the Dylan Hunt mention reminds me to watch Andromeda, too. Unless I'm getting my shows mixed up.

Andromeda was the "Hercules in SPAAAAAACE" show that always seemed, to me at least, like a bit of a pale shadow of Farscape. You've got the fish-out-of-water manly-man hero trapped outside of his time, plunked down amidst a somewhat shady and mismatched crew, but where Crichton's status as the nominal lead was constantly undercut and he had to do a lot of adapting to the mores and culture of the new time and place he's found himself in, Dylan is very much The Hero on a Heroic Quest and dragging all the others along with him because that's his job. It's a lot less interesting IMO in terms of subverting narrative tropes than Farscape, and the female characters, while pretty appealing, didn't strike me as being quite as numerous or deeply awesome as the Farscape girls, and the aliens weren't as cool. It had its moments, though, particularly with the minor characters -- I think I was largely watching it for Harper's snark and Tyr's everything (http://andromeda.borderline-angel.com/tyr.htm). I think you might like Beka, with your thing for stoic second-in-commands, tho' you might be frustrated with the way she essentially gets demoted from captain to second fiddle when manly-man Captain Hercules comes along.

Date: 2009-04-09 12:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com
"Tyr's everything" indeed. I wonder if there's any way to get him and Ronon and Teal'c from the Stargates to just stand around and look manly.

Though I've always rather enjoyed Kevin Sorbo, I admit.

Date: 2009-04-09 04:14 am (UTC)
ext_12512: Hinoe from Natsume Yuujinchou, elegant and smirky (Default)
From: [identity profile] smillaraaq.livejournal.com
I would pay GOOD MONEY for a show like that! Although ideally there'd be at least a few action sequences in between all the standing around looking decorative, and maybe they can read the newspaper out loud or something so we can enjoy their voices. Or heck, they could just spend the program time doing one-armed pullups or something:



*fans self*

The show really went downhill for me after Tyr left, and I'm not just saying that because of the loss of Grade-A USDA Prime beefcake; the character made for a lot of really interesting storylines and constant tension amongst the crew because he's from a culture that has essentially elevated Randian self-interest into a religion, so there was always a constant uncertainty as to how far he could be trusted.

And don't get me wrong, I didn't hate Sorbo here, it's just he was the one stuck playing a character type that very rarely resonates with me, and was in a role that by design pretty much was guaranteed more of the spotlight than the minor characters I found more intriguing. The character definitely had his moments and I certainly wasn't rooting for him to fall out of an airlock or anything, I just couldn't bring myself to be as interested in him in particular as the scripts wanted me to be.

Date: 2009-04-09 01:37 pm (UTC)
the_rck: (Default)
From: [personal profile] the_rck
We really enjoyed seasons one and two of Andromeda. Season three was about 50-50 episodes we liked and episodes we hated. Season four, we watched but couldn't track what was going on. Season five, we pretty much gave up and only watch a few scattered episodes because we really, really didn't care.

I missed Tyr a lot and was relatively angry about the way they got rid of him because it didn't make sense to me. I had the impression that the show was shifting from more of an ensemble to a very strong focus on just Dylan. I disliked that as I was interested in his impact on the other characters rather than in their impact on him.

Date: 2009-04-09 09:13 pm (UTC)
ext_12512: Hinoe from Natsume Yuujinchou, elegant and smirky (Default)
From: [identity profile] smillaraaq.livejournal.com
I disliked that as I was interested in his impact on the other characters rather than in their impact on him.

*nods* Much the same here -- I don't find his sort of idealistic-crusading-hero sort all that intriguing on its own, but the early seasons where his drive to Save The World is constantly crashing up against Beka's crew of scruffy, cynically jaded survivors, and Tyr's flat-out what's-in-it-for-me absolute self-interest, were somewhat nifty. With Tyr gone and more of the Maru folks falling under Dylan's spell and the spotlight focusing more and more on him, my interest in the show slipped a lot. I still watched all of the last season because it was there and it was something to play in the background while I was knitting or doing other stuff, but for the most part I didn't really care, either -- it was pretty much at the level of a mystery novel where I only bother to keep turning pages 'cause I need something to read on the train and I'm idly curious as to whodunit.

Date: 2009-04-07 11:36 am (UTC)
the_rck: (Default)
From: [personal profile] the_rck
Babylon 5 cemented my tendency to search for online spoilers. I loved it, but there were times when I couldn't face episodes if I didn't already have a sense of the general shape of the story. There was a very active discussion online that included massive commentary from JMS. I can't remember the website name off the top of my head, but it might still be around in some form and be worth looking at after you've watched the series. (I'd expect spoilers for future episodes in the discussions at this point.)

I found season 1 more watchable after seeing season 2. We came to the series late, while season 2 was airing, and had to scramble a bit to catch the season 1 episodes. There're a lot of things in season 1 that set up much bigger events later or otherwise change when viewed with more information.

My husband has been buying the script books which are (or were) about $40 each.

Date: 2009-04-07 02:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com
Season 1 is pretty watchable so far.

Date: 2009-04-08 08:32 pm (UTC)
ext_12512: Hinoe from Natsume Yuujinchou, elegant and smirky (Default)
From: [identity profile] smillaraaq.livejournal.com
There was a very active discussion online that included massive commentary from JMS. I can't remember the website name off the top of my head, but it might still be around in some form and be worth looking at after you've watched the series. (I'd expect spoilers for future episodes in the discussions at this point.)

Back in the day when it was running, the epicenter of fannish discussion about the show was on Usenet, particularly rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated, where JMS himself was an active participant. You can trawl through the raw group archive via Google Groups if you're a real glutton for original source material, or for a more conveniently browsable form I'd suggest the long-running Lurker's Guide (http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/lurker.html) page, which includes relevant quotes from his Usenet posts in the "jms speaks" section at the end of each episode summary.

Date: 2009-04-07 05:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bemysty.livejournal.com
ohgod babylon 5 <3 Will forever be my favourite science fiction series of any country, ever, because the plotting between season 2 and 4 was just breathtaking... how they made it all match up and how hints strewn earlier were taken up later was like a sledgehammer to my 14yo-grew-up-on-TOS-and-TNG brain *g*

Let's just say that Londo, G'Kar, Delenn, Lennier and Ivanova are still among my favourite characters from any medium. I basically cried my eyes out when Andreas Katsulas died a couple of years ago because this, in JMS' words, also meant the death of G'Kar - double the loss, essentially.

Date: 2009-04-08 02:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meganbmoore.livejournal.com
I think I remember the internet explosion over his death.

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