Bleach and character identification in manga(though not necessarily directly connected)

[meganbmoore]

I am up to ep 11 of the first season of Bleach(Ishida, I felt like I was being good, waiting so long for you to do something.  Just so you know.  I had forgotten what a prick you are initially, though.)  As far as the show itself goes...uhm...it's good and it's Bleach, but I don't have a lot else to say about it.  I have, howeverm watched some of the eps dubbed while I also did other things in the room(and while calixababbled to me about badfic) and...that's Ichigo and Rukia?  Uhm...very much not how I'd imagined their voices(keeping in mind that I'm very generous about dubbed anime, as it's all I watched the first few years.)  At all.  Orihime and Isshin are pretty good, though.

It reminded me, though, of a conversation I had not to long ago with someone(don't ask me who, I forget because I'm bad that way) about character types we identify with in manga.  The character type I tend to identify with the most in fiction is the one who, on the surface, is bookish and intelligent and doesn't seem to interact with people once, and tends to come across as superior or a jerk, but who you eventually realized is just reserved and has no social skills or idea of how to interact with people.  This especially stands out with someone like Ishida, who tends to be shown sitting off alone with his book, speaks as little as possible, and is assumed my the few who notice him or try to interact with him(except Orihime, who is too nice to ever t hink ill of anyone) to be arrogant and superior.  As we get to know him, however, we see that while he is arrogant, it's more a case of he completely lacks social skills and has no idea how to intereact with others his age, at least partly because he doesn't share their interests.  In high school, I was the girl with the book who people thought was stuck up because I always read and didn't go out and get drunk with them, and didn't use the slang or poor grammar they used.  In reality...I just had no idea how to interact with them, especially when all they wanted to talk about was boys, shopping, and parties(that seemed to involve stories about how cool it was that they got so drunk that they apparently fell on their head and couldn't remember it.)  So when I see a character like Ishida who seems arrogant and superior but is actually reserved and just lacks dissembling social skills and doesn't want to pretend to care about things he doesn't (though in his case, he definately also has a degree of arrogance going for him, too) I tend to connect with the character.   It stands out more with Ishida than others, though, because he's also the bookworm who even reads in class...I viewed breaks between classes as a chance to get a few more pages read myself.  It is, however, a character type that largely seems exclusive to males in manga. 

Which, I think, is part of why so much shojo has trouble sticking with me.  Most shojo seems to depend on the reader quickly connecting with and identifying with the heroine.  Most shojo heroines, though, fit into two categories:

1)  A combination of super cheerful, bubbly, outgoing, go-getter,  talkative girl.
2)  The shy wallflower with few friends.

The first one is a character type that I can like plenty, and often do(sometimes flatout adore,) but who I find it difficult to identify with, because they're the polar opposite of what I was at that age, and still very different from the me today.  The second category seems to be the one I should identify with, except that those girls often let themselves be used by others financially and academically, and often lack a spine until the hero's love gives them one.  Sorry, but I have and always have had a spine, and while I once let myself get pushed around some thinking it would help me fit in, I never let myself get pushed around as much as those girls do.  I may have lacked social skills, but I never lacked a feeling of self-worth, and seeing most of those heroines sit there and take it makes me want to shake them.  And, quite frankly, I never needed some boy to help me stand on my own two feet and give me a feeling of self-worth, and I hope I never do.  (Another problem I have with shojo heroines...they tend to let their self-identity get too wrapped up in their man and what he thinks of them.)  One of the reasons Skip-Beat appeals to me is that, technically, Kyoko falls into the second category...except that she grows her spine when she realizes that she's being taken adventage of by the boy she likes, and is all about punishing him for using her, then starting to grow out of the vengeance phase and into her own person largely through her rivalry and later friendship with another girl.

Because I can like but not identify with them, the more the plot starts to revolve around their romantic issues(especially the "he wants to have sex but I'm not ready" stuff) the less I can care.  Shonen, however, is different.  Because it's directed to boys, the female characters aren't put forth specifically for me to identify with, but rather for me to like, find interesting or cool, etc.  Because I'm not expected to put myself in her shoes, I never feel like I'm missing out by not directly identifying with her.

And I have no idea if any of this will even make sense to anyone but me, but there it is.

Comments

[wistfulmemory.livejournal.com]

I really can't watched dubbed anime anymore, though I also started out on that. My biggest problem with it is how corny a lot of the dialog sounds in English. It sounds cool in Japanese, but I start giggling or rolling my eyes when I hear it in English.

I've never really analyzed why some manga series work for me and some don't. I can recall quickly giving up on some shojo series because of the main heroine being so ridiculous and opposite of me personality-wise that I couldn't stand reading any more. My personality is definitely not one that's popular in shojo manga.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I watch mostly shonen anime...it's equally awesomely corny no matter what the language is.

Shojo depends too much on instant identification for it to have much of a chance with me, and most of the heroines are more caricatures than anything else.

[filmi-girl.livejournal.com]

I hate watching dubbed anything! I don't understand why it needs to be done for media directed at anyone over the age of 5.

Re: heroines, I don't really identify with bubbly heroines, either. I usually find myself indentifying with their love interests in cases like that. ;D Being strange and unsocial myself, I would love to see more characters like Sunako in Wallflower. (Or Nobuta in Nobuta wo Produce.)

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Technically, anything animated is dubbed by definition...it's just which language they're dubbed in.

Sunako is one of the few heroines I can say that I can identify or connection with. Sunbi in Dokebi Bride is another.

[fmanalyst.livejournal.com]

I actually identify most with the girls who are like the one in my default icon. They're shy and they read too much, a little too imaginative, but not really depending on anyone else either. Their social skills are a little lacking, but they're perceived as more eccentric than arrogant.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

That's the kind I tend to identify with, too. And I desperately long for an icon of the part where she's buried in books with her arm sticking out that says "just another day," but FMA icon makers dont' seem willing to indulge me.

Unfortunately, most characters like that are like she is: a minor character.

[fmanalyst.livejournal.com]

At least there's Yomiko Readman, who's that character as the lead.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

That OVA is among my most precious of preciousests. She is my hero.

[magicnoire.livejournal.com]

And you've pretty much hit the nail on the head when it comes to me and shoujo heroines. It's why, half the time, I want to smack shoujo heroines and fling them out the window.

Okay, maybe more than half.

But it's also why I love Sunako, who's a little bit crazy and loves her darkness and her horror and her creepy stuff... which reminds me of me and why I can identify with her more easily than, say, a Mayu Shinjo heroine.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Well, hey, the main difference between us when it comes to manga is that I have a higher tolerance for annoying heroines and you for fanservice as long as you get your ninja action...

Sunako I can identify with...not the horror loving methods, but that she just is what she is and feels no shame about it, and doesn't care.

I attempted to read Sensual Phrase when several on the f-list were reading it a while back. Too trashy, no characters I liked, and not enough crack to make up for the trashy. I wanted to strangle the girl and arrest the guy for sexual harassment.

[crumpeteer.livejournal.com]

I've never really identified with shojo or any female characters in manga really. There are moments I identify with their feelings, but rarely the whole character. I can identify with Sakura pining over Sasuke. I can identify with Haruhi being surrounded by boys and wanting to clobber them in their pretty heads. Whole characters though I simply don't identify with.

Part of that is me being more interested in watching as a voyeur than in identifying. I like character meta, not connection. That being said, I loathe doormat female characters. I loathe TSTL female characters. Shojo unfortunately tends to crank those type of characters out.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

You seem to be like me in that you read shojo, but most of the titles that click the most for you are shonen.

I think shonen appeals more to the part of us that wants to be a voyeur...were' just meant to sit back and enjoy the ride. Shojo excpects us to get involved and put ourselves in the heroine's head, and the more it wants that out of me, the more I want to strangle the heroine. Most shojo heroines, even the gutsy ones, end up being doormats or TSTL so they can be "saved" by the hero.

[kingcrankycat.livejournal.com]

I'll just add my pro-dub comment here, without bothering to provide my reasons :b. Although I only do that for cartoons (anime or otherwise); live action I have to watch subbed whenever possible (unless I'm doing something else that requires me to not stare at the screen all of the time, in which case I switch between sub/dub as necessary)

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Unless it's just bad voices, the dub/sub argument seems silly to me for anime as long as it's faithful, because all animatiom is dubbed anyway, no matter what the language is.

Live action dubbed is just...weird, though.

[lilac-breeze.livejournal.com]

I hear you all too well. All through grade school and high school, I was off in the corner of the room, reading. I used to sneak books out to the playground during recess before they caught me and told me I "had to play and be healthy". Yeah, that didn't go over so well. :/

However, I'm also painfully shy and withdrawn. I'm lacking social skills because I get flustered and embarrassed easily, and I prefer to just be left alone. Unlike Ishida, though, I'm far too nice for my own good and I was constantly taken advantage of because of that. You'd think years of the same thing would change me; hah, no such luck. I'm still too nice and forgiving, but at least now I have friends that don't use that to their advantage. I often admire the characters like Ishida, actually.

I like your analysis on the shojo heroines. I could never really say why I prefer shonen stuff to shojo most of the time... I guess because I enjoy things like magic and swordfights and the will to protect those you love over sugary romance. Romance is fine as long as it isn't the main focus of the story for me. *stops rambling*

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

"I hear you all too well. All through grade school and high school, I was off in the corner of the room, reading. I used to sneak books out to the playground during recess before they caught me and told me I "had to play and be healthy". Yeah, that didn't go over so well. :/"

Well, that sounds very painfully familiar ("But I'm reading...that IS healthy...")

Ishida is also too nice for his own good...he just tries really, really hard to deny it.

"I guess because I enjoy things like magic and swordfights and the will to protect those you love over sugary romance. Romance is fine as long as it isn't the main focus of the story for me. *stops rambling*"

Exactly. To quote myself in a post I made once about love triangles: "Plus, shojo tends to say "I love you" as "I will fret and dither about sex, secrets and your and my feelings for endless volumes," while shonen tends to say "I love you" as "I will tear the world apart/cross dimensions/fight 5000 people with my sword/gun/fists/brain to save you even if it takes 10 volumes of incredibly long fights, and if someone tries to question me about my feelings, I'll either be rescued by a random fight or suddenly realize how very very urgent finding you is." I find the latter to be vastly more entertaining."

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

That makes perfect sense, because I was also That Girl all throughout my school years. (Well, with the caveat that while much of the perception of arrogance was just due to the poor-social-skills, introvert, lack-of-common-interests thing, some of it was honestly from me sneering at the ones that I thought were exceptionally vapid...what can I say, my bitchy misanthropic streak bloomed early.)

And I do tend to bounce off a lot of shojo, and Western romances and chick-lit as well; too much of the time the character that I'm expected to identify with is just so far off from my personality and interests that I can't do it even if she's at least likeable, or else she's a character type like the Doormat that I find actively annoying. The only shojo heroines I've ever deeply identified with are the ones like Utena or Lady Oscar who have buckets of gender issues. Shonen, OTOH, or other genre stuff that's perhaps presuming a more male audience -- while the male heroes (or sidekicks and bit players, given my tendency to fixate on minor characters) may not be intended for me to identify with, but if the personality has enough similarities I do it anyway. But as I noted back in the cosplay thread, a lot of that is force of habit -- I got used to identifying with the boys as a child, since so much of the stuff aimed at girls just didn't interest me at all, and the female characters in the boy books, cartoons, etc. I liked were also fairly often just not me either...

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

"(Well, with the caveat that while much of the perception of arrogance was just due to the poor-social-skills, introvert, lack-of-common-interests thing, some of it was honestly from me sneering at the ones that I thought were exceptionally vapid...what can I say, my bitchy misanthropic streak bloomed early.)"

Well, yes, of course. Part of being the kid who always reads is being the kid with a functioning brain. One must eventually acknowledge that yes, one is surrounded by idiots.

I think it's that a lot of shojo depends on identification, and we are typically offered extreme, unflattering stereotypes to identify with, while shonen(like US comics) relies on our sitting back and enjoying the ride.

[chomiji]

Actually, to me, it always seems that some of the shounen manga are assembling teams of characters so that all the guys who read them will have someone with whom to identify! For example, Akira (SDK) and Ishida (Bleach) are both variants of brainy nerds, whereas both Benitora (SDK) and Ichigo (Bleach) have a regular-guy vibe. The same categories don't always occur in each manga (or anime), but the idea of a team of diverse guys who don't always agree, but end up pulling together anyway, seems pretty common. And like smilla, I've always been able to identify with male characters.

(And I think lack of a character with whom to identify is what killed Nana for me.)

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Shonen definately puts forth a lot of character types to identify with, but it's not as dependent on identification as shojo is.

Nana...*twitch*

I tried to like that. I really, really tried. But while I thought rocker!Nana was a pretty fun character to read about, and I liked her bald lawyer friend, there are few characters I have ever wanted to drown more than girly!Nana...and her boyfriend, who I disliked BEFORE we learned he was a worthless cheat. I'm fine with super girly...as long as there's some semblance of a spine or brain to go with it.

[isweedan]

But you are a super bubbly, outgoing, talkative girl. At least, I (who regrettably doesn't know you that very well)think you are.
I chime into the discussion and say that I too tend to instantly identify with the bookish, odd characters but sometimes I suspect that they're only put in there for me to identify with.
Luna Lovegood for one, what exactly was the point of her, besides being bizzare and awesome?

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Ah, but you only see me with things I'm energetic about. Some of my coworkers joke when I actually speak 2-3 sentences at a time.

[isweedan]

Ah, but you are energetic and enthused about So Many Things that you must rarely be unenthused inside your head. I handwave your coworkers.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Well, of course I'm always enthused inside my head...AND THIS IS THE ONLY TRUE OUTLET FOR 90% OF MY LOVE!!!

[isweedan]

I submit! I cannot stand firm in the face of teh CAPSLOCK.


But you're still bubbly ^.^

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

The power of the CAPSLOCK is mighty and allencompassing.

Bubbly is better than rabid, though(not, mind you, that there's anything wrong with bubbly in the first place)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

You know, I wonder what you would think of "Tramps Like Us". It's my shojo series (Saiyuki is my shounan one) and it's one of the few manga I have all the volumes.

The heroine is (me, with a few more extreme traits - I actually have a post to that effect coming up) - a cross between those two character tropes; she's an insanely smart, workaholic journalist, who is awkward in general with people. The basic plot of this manga is that, after having been dumped by the man she thought she was going to marry, she comes across a beaten up young man in an alley, takes him home. He wants to stay with her, since her flat is awesome, and she cooks, and she says no... unless he stays as her pet.

I'm in love with this serious for the way the author treats the heroine - she is given respect for what an effort being an 'elite' is, and the person you should be with is presented as the person you're most comfortable with, not the knight in shining armor, even if you love him a lot too.

Plus, I find the window on japanese modern life fascinating (no idea how accurate it is...).

It's a very fun, frothy series.

... sorry to get all tangenty and rambling in your journal.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I've actually seen and enjoyed, with reservations, the live action of this. It was interesting, and I have been recced the manga before, but I haven't checked it out because it's the kind of story that typically works best for me as either a novel, or a movie or short live/anime series, not so much in manga format.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

First off - the manga is better than the live action, and if you liked it, you'll probably enjoy the manga. I was so sorry I didn't get the chance to see the live action before they took it off youtube.

I totally understand liking this type of story best in a more confined narrative. I was reading the last one, and was really, really sad when i saw 'to be continued' on the end, because they were at such a perfect stopping point, before reading that the NEXT volume will be the end.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

it's the kind of story that I need to be able to feel a definate ending for at the start...as opposed to the author putting the idea out, then ending it when they feel like it.

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

Totally understood. That's one reason I'm so happy the manga is ending, and before I, at least, felt got to the point that I feel the author is just jerking us around. I mean, no question, there were some soap-opera-y moments, but they didn't feel forced, you know? Of course, with that sort of thing, milage varies tremendously.

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

Funnily enough, may_flyer has been reccing that to me for ages. I need to pick it up one of these years and check it out. (And in my warped brain I'm thinking of it as a more domestic, non-slashy take on Wild Adapter. *snickers*)

[redbrunja.livejournal.com]

may_flyer? Seriously? Avatar, Girl Genius... I really need to look through her interests and see what other fandoms we share.

And I haven't actually read Wild Adapter (Fandom: "CANON SLASH! THIS PROVES HAKKAIXGOJYO!1111" Me: "yeah, I'm giving that one a pass.") but from what I've heard, that comparison isn't too far off.

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

Hrm, I know you have Tamora Pierce in common, as she mentioned those as childhood favorites when we were talking a while back about ass-kicking Canon Sue heroines we loved as kids. The 1980s British cult series Robin of Sherwood is one that she and I have in common, and other than that I know she goes for a lot of Japanese console-RPG fandoms, Final Fantasy in particular and various more obscure titles. Oh, and the various Gundam series; I was pointing her over to this side of my Flist when Megan and Rachel and others were doing all the hysterical Gundam Wing reviews. ;)

As for Wild Adapter as canon slash? Eh, not really. Buckets and buckets of subtext, as is Minekura's wont, but still hardly anything in the way of action. I haven't yet made my way through the scanlations I picked up of the most recent volume, but in the stuff out in English so far there is just one male/male kiss (and it's not even between the Gojyo-and-Hakkai-ish boys; it's between the Hakkai-ish Kubota and his Yakuza boss, and it doesn't go anywhere). Other than that, well, there's one scene where Toki and Kubo are delivering dialogue to sound like they're making out, but it's a distraction because their room has been bugged; they're actually just sitting on a couch looking bored the whole time. And in another arc, the cover story Kubo comes up with when they're trying to get closer to a cult they're investigating is that they're half-brothers rejected by their family for their incestuous love (Toki is NOT amused). As far as text goes, that's as slashy as it gets. (I understand she's done an AU doujinshi where it is overt, but that's another story of course.)

Mind you, even if it's not terribly slashy in actual overt canon, I'm still not sure it'd be quite your thing. Minekura brings the pretty, as usual, but it's more of a dark urban mystery series with gritty underworld/Yakuza elements. Female characters are pretty scarce and mostly ones you'd not want to identify with, and the Hakkai-ish boy is *so* cold and reserved that he makes TENPOU look like a big fluffy teddy bear in comparison. I like it, but a lot of Minekura fans who adore Saiyuki seem to find this one leaves them a little cold.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

ROBIN OF SHERWOOD!

*hem*

I highly doubt she'd like Wild Adaptor. I have a much higher slash tolerance than she does, and I like urban noir, but I couldn't finish the second book. Too obsessed with being dark and gritty and not enough anything else. OTPH, I very, very much liked Bus Gamer, and wish there was more of it. It has a similar comraderie feel as Saiyuki, and is a rather fun adventure book that actually makes games between businessmen interesting.

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

ZOMG YOU KNOW ROBIN OF SHERWOOD?! *clings* Imprinting on Michael Praed at an impressionable age is, I suspect, more than slightly responsible for my long-hair fetish. And it's definitely at the root of my dreadful weakness for the dark-hair-and-green-eyes combination.

I've liked WA better than BG so far, but I have a bit of a thing for yakuza/triad stories, mysteries, and gritty noir, so even aside from any slashy subtext it's hitting more favored genre buttons for me. (And the crackier parts of my brain, given my 585 obsession, can't resist trying to parse it as all just one long dark strange 585 AU or reincarnation fic, so really it works for me on multiple levels.)

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I still need to get the ROS set with the other guy. (I refuse to hold Praed getting a big head and leaving the show against the other guy.)

You know...from the little I saw, the WA characters made me think about Hakkai and Goku more than Hakkai and Gojyo, but then, I didn't read very far. The main problem I had with it was just that it was SO OBSESSED with being dark and gritty and noir. I don't care for when writers/artist get so obsessed with their style that it starts getting in the way of the work for me.

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

Oh, god, I'm so obsessed that I have both the limited edition VHS complete box sets that was offered briefly in the mid 90s, AND the first release of the PAL DVDs. IIRC they finally put out NTSC DVDs for the US/Canada market a couple of years ago, but I've managed to restrain my rabid fangirlish urge to completism since I can play the PAL stuff with no trouble...

As for Praed's jumping ship, eh, I can't really blame him for jumping at the shot of a starring role on Broadway -- it was the sort of thing that could have been his big break if the musical hadn't flopped so hard. And much as it broke my heart seeing Loxley get killed off, it gave the writers some grand opportunities to play with both major strands of the Robin Hood mythos and work with all sorts of heightened emotions; "The Greatest Enemy" just packed such an incredible punch and I'm not sure the series ever would have reached that high point if Loxley had survived. It's just a shame that Kip was doing so much less of the writing by S3, Huntington had a lot of potential but it was too often undercut by clunky writing. And then it never got picked up for a fourth season so all those plot threads were left hanging...

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Even though they probably never really meant to, they set the stage very, very clearly for another Robin Hood to take over right from the start.

I haven't seen Huntington Robin Hood yet(aside from the bit at the end of the first set) as I'm waiting for the set to have a good price.

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

Oh, eek, I just assumed you'd seen them at some point but merely didn't own them. I shall attempt to restrain my cult-fandom squee so as not to spoil you, in that case. Unless you've already spoiled yourself from poking through fansites and such, in which case I will be happy to babble endlessly about the series until you tell me to shut up already.

(And hrm, you know, I *do* actually have a DVD R/RW drive these days, perhaps this is a sign that it's well past time I tested out the "W" side of things...)