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meganbmooreI am up to ep 11 of the first season of Bleach(Ishida, I felt like I was being good, waiting so long for you to do something. Just so you know. I had forgotten what a prick you are initially, though.) As far as the show itself goes...uhm...it's good and it's Bleach, but I don't have a lot else to say about it. I have, howeverm watched some of the eps dubbed while I also did other things in the room(and while calixababbled to me about badfic) and...that's Ichigo and Rukia? Uhm...very much not how I'd imagined their voices(keeping in mind that I'm very generous about dubbed anime, as it's all I watched the first few years.) At all. Orihime and Isshin are pretty good, though.
It reminded me, though, of a conversation I had not to long ago with someone(don't ask me who, I forget because I'm bad that way) about character types we identify with in manga. The character type I tend to identify with the most in fiction is the one who, on the surface, is bookish and intelligent and doesn't seem to interact with people once, and tends to come across as superior or a jerk, but who you eventually realized is just reserved and has no social skills or idea of how to interact with people. This especially stands out with someone like Ishida, who tends to be shown sitting off alone with his book, speaks as little as possible, and is assumed my the few who notice him or try to interact with him(except Orihime, who is too nice to ever t hink ill of anyone) to be arrogant and superior. As we get to know him, however, we see that while he is arrogant, it's more a case of he completely lacks social skills and has no idea how to intereact with others his age, at least partly because he doesn't share their interests. In high school, I was the girl with the book who people thought was stuck up because I always read and didn't go out and get drunk with them, and didn't use the slang or poor grammar they used. In reality...I just had no idea how to interact with them, especially when all they wanted to talk about was boys, shopping, and parties(that seemed to involve stories about how cool it was that they got so drunk that they apparently fell on their head and couldn't remember it.) So when I see a character like Ishida who seems arrogant and superior but is actually reserved and just lacks dissembling social skills and doesn't want to pretend to care about things he doesn't (though in his case, he definately also has a degree of arrogance going for him, too) I tend to connect with the character. It stands out more with Ishida than others, though, because he's also the bookworm who even reads in class...I viewed breaks between classes as a chance to get a few more pages read myself. It is, however, a character type that largely seems exclusive to males in manga.
Which, I think, is part of why so much shojo has trouble sticking with me. Most shojo seems to depend on the reader quickly connecting with and identifying with the heroine. Most shojo heroines, though, fit into two categories:
1) A combination of super cheerful, bubbly, outgoing, go-getter, talkative girl.
2) The shy wallflower with few friends.
The first one is a character type that I can like plenty, and often do(sometimes flatout adore,) but who I find it difficult to identify with, because they're the polar opposite of what I was at that age, and still very different from the me today. The second category seems to be the one I should identify with, except that those girls often let themselves be used by others financially and academically, and often lack a spine until the hero's love gives them one. Sorry, but I have and always have had a spine, and while I once let myself get pushed around some thinking it would help me fit in, I never let myself get pushed around as much as those girls do. I may have lacked social skills, but I never lacked a feeling of self-worth, and seeing most of those heroines sit there and take it makes me want to shake them. And, quite frankly, I never needed some boy to help me stand on my own two feet and give me a feeling of self-worth, and I hope I never do. (Another problem I have with shojo heroines...they tend to let their self-identity get too wrapped up in their man and what he thinks of them.) One of the reasons Skip-Beat appeals to me is that, technically, Kyoko falls into the second category...except that she grows her spine when she realizes that she's being taken adventage of by the boy she likes, and is all about punishing him for using her, then starting to grow out of the vengeance phase and into her own person largely through her rivalry and later friendship with another girl.
Because I can like but not identify with them, the more the plot starts to revolve around their romantic issues(especially the "he wants to have sex but I'm not ready" stuff) the less I can care. Shonen, however, is different. Because it's directed to boys, the female characters aren't put forth specifically for me to identify with, but rather for me to like, find interesting or cool, etc. Because I'm not expected to put myself in her shoes, I never feel like I'm missing out by not directly identifying with her.
And I have no idea if any of this will even make sense to anyone but me, but there it is.
calixababbled to me about badfic) and...that's Ichigo and Rukia? Uhm...very much not how I'd imagined their voices(keeping in mind that I'm very generous about dubbed anime, as it's all I watched the first few years.) At all. Orihime and Isshin are pretty good, though.It reminded me, though, of a conversation I had not to long ago with someone(don't ask me who, I forget because I'm bad that way) about character types we identify with in manga. The character type I tend to identify with the most in fiction is the one who, on the surface, is bookish and intelligent and doesn't seem to interact with people once, and tends to come across as superior or a jerk, but who you eventually realized is just reserved and has no social skills or idea of how to interact with people. This especially stands out with someone like Ishida, who tends to be shown sitting off alone with his book, speaks as little as possible, and is assumed my the few who notice him or try to interact with him(except Orihime, who is too nice to ever t hink ill of anyone) to be arrogant and superior. As we get to know him, however, we see that while he is arrogant, it's more a case of he completely lacks social skills and has no idea how to intereact with others his age, at least partly because he doesn't share their interests. In high school, I was the girl with the book who people thought was stuck up because I always read and didn't go out and get drunk with them, and didn't use the slang or poor grammar they used. In reality...I just had no idea how to interact with them, especially when all they wanted to talk about was boys, shopping, and parties(that seemed to involve stories about how cool it was that they got so drunk that they apparently fell on their head and couldn't remember it.) So when I see a character like Ishida who seems arrogant and superior but is actually reserved and just lacks dissembling social skills and doesn't want to pretend to care about things he doesn't (though in his case, he definately also has a degree of arrogance going for him, too) I tend to connect with the character. It stands out more with Ishida than others, though, because he's also the bookworm who even reads in class...I viewed breaks between classes as a chance to get a few more pages read myself. It is, however, a character type that largely seems exclusive to males in manga.
Which, I think, is part of why so much shojo has trouble sticking with me. Most shojo seems to depend on the reader quickly connecting with and identifying with the heroine. Most shojo heroines, though, fit into two categories:
1) A combination of super cheerful, bubbly, outgoing, go-getter, talkative girl.
2) The shy wallflower with few friends.
The first one is a character type that I can like plenty, and often do(sometimes flatout adore,) but who I find it difficult to identify with, because they're the polar opposite of what I was at that age, and still very different from the me today. The second category seems to be the one I should identify with, except that those girls often let themselves be used by others financially and academically, and often lack a spine until the hero's love gives them one. Sorry, but I have and always have had a spine, and while I once let myself get pushed around some thinking it would help me fit in, I never let myself get pushed around as much as those girls do. I may have lacked social skills, but I never lacked a feeling of self-worth, and seeing most of those heroines sit there and take it makes me want to shake them. And, quite frankly, I never needed some boy to help me stand on my own two feet and give me a feeling of self-worth, and I hope I never do. (Another problem I have with shojo heroines...they tend to let their self-identity get too wrapped up in their man and what he thinks of them.) One of the reasons Skip-Beat appeals to me is that, technically, Kyoko falls into the second category...except that she grows her spine when she realizes that she's being taken adventage of by the boy she likes, and is all about punishing him for using her, then starting to grow out of the vengeance phase and into her own person largely through her rivalry and later friendship with another girl.
Because I can like but not identify with them, the more the plot starts to revolve around their romantic issues(especially the "he wants to have sex but I'm not ready" stuff) the less I can care. Shonen, however, is different. Because it's directed to boys, the female characters aren't put forth specifically for me to identify with, but rather for me to like, find interesting or cool, etc. Because I'm not expected to put myself in her shoes, I never feel like I'm missing out by not directly identifying with her.
And I have no idea if any of this will even make sense to anyone but me, but there it is.
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Date: 2008-01-21 11:04 pm (UTC)And I do tend to bounce off a lot of shojo, and Western romances and chick-lit as well; too much of the time the character that I'm expected to identify with is just so far off from my personality and interests that I can't do it even if she's at least likeable, or else she's a character type like the Doormat that I find actively annoying. The only shojo heroines I've ever deeply identified with are the ones like Utena or Lady Oscar who have buckets of gender issues. Shonen, OTOH, or other genre stuff that's perhaps presuming a more male audience -- while the male heroes (or sidekicks and bit players, given my tendency to fixate on minor characters) may not be intended for me to identify with, but if the personality has enough similarities I do it anyway. But as I noted back in the cosplay thread, a lot of that is force of habit -- I got used to identifying with the boys as a child, since so much of the stuff aimed at girls just didn't interest me at all, and the female characters in the boy books, cartoons, etc. I liked were also fairly often just not me either...
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Date: 2008-01-22 12:39 am (UTC)Well, yes, of course. Part of being the kid who always reads is being the kid with a functioning brain. One must eventually acknowledge that yes, one is surrounded by idiots.
I think it's that a lot of shojo depends on identification, and we are typically offered extreme, unflattering stereotypes to identify with, while shonen(like US comics) relies on our sitting back and enjoying the ride.
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Date: 2008-01-22 03:59 pm (UTC)Actually, to me, it always seems that some of the shounen manga are assembling teams of characters so that all the guys who read them will have someone with whom to identify! For example, Akira (SDK) and Ishida (Bleach) are both variants of brainy nerds, whereas both Benitora (SDK) and Ichigo (Bleach) have a regular-guy vibe. The same categories don't always occur in each manga (or anime), but the idea of a team of diverse guys who don't always agree, but end up pulling together anyway, seems pretty common. And like smilla, I've always been able to identify with male characters.
(And I think lack of a character with whom to identify is what killed Nana for me.)
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Date: 2008-01-22 05:45 pm (UTC)Nana...*twitch*
I tried to like that. I really, really tried. But while I thought rocker!Nana was a pretty fun character to read about, and I liked her bald lawyer friend, there are few characters I have ever wanted to drown more than girly!Nana...and her boyfriend, who I disliked BEFORE we learned he was a worthless cheat. I'm fine with super girly...as long as there's some semblance of a spine or brain to go with it.