Nothing says love like an abducted, injured woman (which I'm probably misquoting)

[meganbmoore]

Now, here's something I don't get in fiction(spawned by various posts and discussions the last month or so, as well as yesterday's adventure):  Falling in love with your kidnapper stories.

I mean, seriously.  Why on earth would a person fall for someone who abducted them and held them against their will, typically with imprisonment and/or being bound at some point?

There are times I can get past it.  Fantasy, for example, can often get me to smile and nod and get past it, though even then thats the exception.  Typically it involves a case of abduction but not captivity, either because of a vase of mistaken identity, and/or things quickly happening(such as a mutual enemy or the abductee freeing her/himself) and most of those cases involve a preexisting relationship or some sort that keeps the people in question from knowing each other purely in the context of abductor/abductee.

There's also Stardust, of course, though I hesitate to include it(but feel I should.)  There, it's more a case of a stupid boy doing a stupid thing and needing to grow up(and doing so) and the girl going "ok, am ditching the stupid boy first chance I get" and then doing so, and then not giving him a chance until he's proven himself in another context, at which point, it's "ok, the stupid boy has his uses and isn't so bad...just stupid" and eventually "ok, he's a stupid boy but he grew a brain and he's my stupid boy anyway, so I'll keep him."

But mostly, though, these stories are women(and sometimes men) falling for a person who abducts them and holds them prisoner, and falling for the person in that context.

I'd like to handwave it as a certain subset of romance novels, but it seems to be in most genres of any medium, and has a huge following.  It also seems to be really, really popular in fanfic.

Anyone have any opinions on this one(and, seriously, it is something I've always wanted to understand why it's popular)?

Comments

[bzoppa.livejournal.com]

By no means think I'm defending the convention, but I'm one cent in: it's certainly not unprecedented, cf. Stockholm syndrome.

Unfortunately, I don't think people like Cassie Edwards and other subpar romance writers do it to evoke the psychological response. i think they do it to be f'ing stupid and find it repulsive, myself.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Well, it's not just romance novels, it's just more prevalent there.

I think at least some of it is the delusion that captor=protector.

[bzoppa.livejournal.com]

I think at least some of it is the delusion that captor=protector.

I think I just don't encounter it very much. Thinking about anime/picking up bits from the manga you post about and I happen to catch, I can see that happening a lot. (I obviously don't read those posts exhaustively because I have no idea what you're talking about, but I will skim through sometimes)

[laura-holt-pi.livejournal.com]

There is a real phenomenon called Stockholm Syndrome in which a hostage or kidnap victim becomes so reliant on the goodwill of her captors that she experiences feelings for them that are superficially like love. These feelings fade as the victim works through her reaction to events.

Writers who hear a partial account of this can take it to mean that an abducted woman genuinely falls in love with her captor, rather than that she experiences a period of emotional confusion where she is very vulnerable to suggestion etc.

At the same time, some women have rape fantasies, which tend to spring from fear of sex (usually because they hold the view that sex is dirty and shameful). A woman who feels that "nice girls don't" might have fantasies in which she is forced to have sex by a "bad man" which would mean it is not her fault, so it's okay for her to enjoy it, because it's not a deliberate sin.

The whole area is incredibly messed up and makes me want to strangle those who use these real psychological problems to write stories in which a woman who is abducted and/or raped discovers that she really wants to submit to a man and be his slave.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I think misuderstanding of Stockholm Syndrome is the main thing that gives it a following. I'm sure there's some "Making him see he's wrong and healing him" delusions mixed in, too.

[laura-holt-pi.livejournal.com]

Yes. In many ways, that's the more frightening part. Too many women marry men they know are dangerous, thinking they can heal them with their pure and special love.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

There are some of your fictional 'dislikes' that I either don't share or don't feel as strongly about them as you do, but on this one, I am entirely with you.

I still remember watching Three Days of the Condor and somehow, in it, miraculously Faye Dunaway fell in love with the guy who tied her to her chair in her house, and threatened her. Yeah, they even had sex. I don't care if he was played by Robert Redford, my WTF meter ended up permanently broken.

Not to say it can't sometimes be interesting: for one thing if the relationship portrayed is a dark and messed up one. But the way most novels/movies/fic treat it? YIKES. Give me some more of that Stockholm Syndrome, please. Not.

Any sane person would not be experiencing cuddlies and trust with the captor but want to get the heck away as fast as they can.

Still not as mindboggling as the cliche of 'it's prove of his love that he can't even control himself in bed and see to your pleasure, slowly, but must have you NOW' I've seen in tons of romance novels. So, it's a proof of love he is selfish in bed?

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

It can sometimes fit in well with the "enemies as lovers" routine, as long as that's handled well in the first place, but usually, that's it(and when that works for me, there's typically an existing connection from before) and even then only sometimes. And, as you pointed out, it usually has a dark or messed up undertone, and is often a case of people whose lives are ruled by some mixture or war and distrust learning to trust. (A perfect example of this is the movie Willow, where her mother is the villain and it's all she knows, and he's a disgraced soldier protecting a farmer and a baby...he kidnaps her and holds her hostage because it's the only way to save their lives, but by then, he's very well established in her mind as the man protecting a farmer and a baby. Plus, first chance she gets, she beats the *hem* out of him and escapes.)

Then there's the "stupid kid" approach, such as Stardust, where the girl is typically much brighter and gives him hell for it.

Mostly, though, it's just the Stockholm syndrome, and often, it's treated as amazingly non-issue. "Oh, you kidnapped me. Well, that's just a plot contrivance, it doesn't matter."

The problem with romance novels is that, like any genre, you have the good ones and the bad ones, but the genre attracts far, far more people who just want mindless brain candy and heavy bosoms and manly bare chests, so a lot more dreck manages to get published than in other genres. There's the kidnapping thing(which makes finding ones I want to read hard at times) as well as the popularity of alpha male/dormat and "Forced seduction."

BTW, how are you feeling today? Weren't you sivk yesterday?

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Forced seduction makes me SICK. Ugh.

I am still sick at home :(

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Forced seduction is...wrong. I am very, very glad that every genre has moved past it(I've also seen it a lot in fantasy and scifi and the occassional mystery...including one scifi where, after forced seduction, he gave her-in that way-to his men when she later rejected his love and then she went on a qquest to get him back, and they ended up together. It was supposed to be "strong heroine" scifi.)

Well...at least you're sick at home with, it seems, Bollywood DVDs and period kdramas.

[laura-holt-pi.livejournal.com]

Still not as mindboggling as the cliche of 'it's prove of his love that he can't even control himself in bed and see to your pleasure, slowly, but must have you NOW' I've seen in tons of romance novels. So, it's a proof of love he is selfish in bed?

Bizarre, innit? Makes you suspect that the writer is trying to explain away a disastrous love-life of her own. She didn't pick bad lovers, they all just loved her too much.

This is from one of my stories: He was watching her face, enjoying the view as always, clearly delighted at the effect that he was having. He prolonged her pleasure as long as he could, then sought and found his own.

[mscongeniality.livejournal.com]

Okay...I haven't been following your posts on this crazy romance author carefully, but I know enough that what I'm about to mention is a) either something she is completely unaware of, or b) something she has heard about and subverted horribly in her trashy novels. I own a couple of books on the subject but have never done any real research into it. I'd look up references for you, but I've no idea how to phrase the searches so that useful information pops up.

That all being said...

There was a practice among some Native American Tribes to 'replace' missing or dead family members by kidnapping women or children from the group of people that wronged them. After European colonization, that was most often the white settlers.

These people were not held 'captive' in the way we'd consider it today. They weren't kept bound and they weren't tied to the group they were living with by anything beyond isolation. They were welcomed as family members, taught the lifeways of the people they were now living with, and were not held to be inferior within the group.

Personal narratives written after these 'abductees' returned to White civilization seem to remember the time they spent there fondly and, further, there are multiple recorded cases of women and children running away back to their abductors or, as they would phrase it, their adopted families.

It seems that many found White society difficult to readjust to, and preferred the lifestyle they had as 'natives'. This is much less a case of 'Stockholm Syndrome' and much more that the Native groups often had a better quality of living. Life on the frontier could often be grueling with little room for personal freedom or anything resembling 'relaxation', not to mention strict religious and social structure.

So...yeah. It has happened, but most of the stories you're talking about are really something else entirely.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Actually, Edwards was just the icing on the cake...I've been seeing it around a lot lately, and it's popular all over the place. I am familiar with that practice, but, while I have read several native american kidnappee novels, none have actually portrayed it that way.

[mscongeniality.livejournal.com]

No, because it's not dramatic enough and heaven forbid we use anything resembling cultural or historical accuracy.

I don't understand the appeal of those kinds of stories either. They're stupid and offensive.

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

Searching on "mourning raid"/"mourning war" will turn up a lot of that material, also "captivity narrative" if you're particularly interested in the white captive/adoptee side of things; adding in specific nations you're interested in will help get you more focused results. I'm most familiar with the Iroquois-specific material, for obvious reasons.

There was a practice among some Native American Tribes to 'replace' missing or dead family members by kidnapping women or children from the group of people that wronged them.

Captives (and adoptees) could also be adult men, and not all captives were adopted; some were taken into the tribe as a replacement for the dead, some were killed as retaliation. Some tribes even kept captives as slaves. And even in cases of full adoption, in some tribes that might be marked by ritualized torture as part of the ceremonial transition of the captive from their old life to their new one.

Judging from the bits Megan has quoted and mentioned so far, it sounds like Edwards really hasn't tried at all to be true to period Seneca practices where mourning raids and captive adoption were concerned; instead it's just your most basic sort of romance-novel abduction dressed up with bronzer and feathers.

As for the white captive-adoptees not wanting to be repatriated, in many of those cases you were also dealing with individuals who'd been captured as younger children, and/or been living with their adoptive tribe long enough to have married and had children. Cynthia Ann Parker (Comanche) and Mary Jemison (Seneca) are two of the best-known example.s

[morwen_peredhil]

I quite like captor/captive storylines as long as they are well-written (which obviously leaves Cassie Edwards and her ilk out). It's a kink that works for me in that dirtybadwrong way.

That's the thing about kinks: if you don't share them, you're unlikely to be able to fathom their appeal.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I can go for it if it's handled well, so sometimes it works for me, but most of the time it isn't handled well, but rather in the Edwards way, botht in fanfic and professional works.

Except for things like rape and cheating, I can get behind most kinks if handled right, really.

[morwen_peredhil]

The whole "You're a total stranger who kidnapped me and held a knife to my throat, like, an hour ago. *giggles vacantly* Hey, let's get it on!" thing is not what I like. Give me acknowledgement that's a disturbing situation and some darkness and layers of emotional complexity, and it's got me.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the first example is what most of the stories are, which is while the general appeal escapes me.

More often than not, I do ok if they know each other in another context before the kidnapping, or its it's portrayed as wrong wrong wrong...and she falls for him in another context.

But "Oh! You kidnapped me...well...I've stamped my foot some and you're hot, so it's ok" is what it usually is.

[morwen_peredhil]

Not just the stamping of a dainty foot. Don't forget the flashing violet eyes and the tossing of the luxuriant golden tresses. And our hero-with-heaving-mantitty-and-rampant-manhood.

This is why I have mostly given up on romance novels. I used to read a ton of them, but my tolerance for that sort of thing is pretty much gone.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I've found that I do ok with romance novels if I largely limit myself to medieval, regency, and victorian set ones. While those attract their hair share of dreck and window dressing, they also tend to attract more actual storytelling...probably because of the history involved and(for regencies and victorians) the opportunity at dialogue.

[morwen_peredhil]

I pretty much stick with medievals, but they're not too popular at the moment. Plus I've gotten a lot pickier.

I've never read a Cassie Edwards romance, but I'll bet Connie Mason's medievals would give Cassie's Indian romances a run for their money in the low-quality dreck department.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yeah, medievals seem to be getting rarer.

I think I tried reading a Connie Mason book once. IIRC, it involved vikings.

[morwen_peredhil]

Sometimes you can judge a book by its cover.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

yes, that's the one

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

Wow, I don't think Cassie Edwards had any titles with exclamation points. Now I'm feeling really cheated, those lucky Scandinavians get a cover model who's at least vaguely ethnically appropriate AND gratuitous punctuation! WHERE IS THE LOVE?

[sanada.livejournal.com]

Well, abduction, imprisonment and even rape was often a prelude to marriage in many cultures... *laugh* It happens often enough in historical dramas! I kind of doubt romance novels are that well researched, though. I think they play on what is apparently a common romantic fantasy for women - to be submissively swept away by a strong, sexual lover.

I think Stardust was both a homage to and parody of that kind of plot... Gaiman likes to write stories about stories.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yeah...you can tell when it's done because of the history or culture, and when it's because "OMG! KIDNAPEE AND KIDNAPPER FALING IN LOVE! SO ROMANTIC!"

I also think Stardust was poking at the plot...esp. with Yvaine's "OK, will dump stupid boy at first opportunity" reaction, as well as the fact that it went out of the way, both in the movie and the book, to show that he really was an idiot at that point.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

Well, there's Hannibal -- I feel that qualifies as a romance. But it admits that it's creepy and not the decision of a fully stable mind.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I actually haven't seen/read that.

[fairest1.livejournal.com]

The book's more of a 'romance' than the movie. There's just something intriguing about a couple whose only physical contact until the last hundred pages or so of the second novel(about a thousand pages between them) is a very . . . intense brush of the fingers when he passes her a file.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

SO WITH YOU ON THIS!

To start with - if my life and/or freedom are in danger I am not very likely to feel any romantic thoughts. To the person who keeps me prisoner, but also to any other. I mean I don't buy all the stuff when a hero and a herouine are running for their life and then they have a BIG LOVE SCENE which puts them even more in danger. I don't understand because I know that I don't work this way myself. When I am in danger ALL I can think of is how to get out.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I can getthe falling in love with the person you went through all that with(not the kidnapping/held prisoner bit) but if it's while the danger is going on, there should be some serious and logical downtime mixed in there to get to know each other. Even if you're just travelling and nobody's trying to kill you at that time, it'll do, as long as there's something beyond the adrenaline ruch.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

MUST tell you now - "Trick" is awesome!!!!!!!

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Of course it is.

I've been telling the entire internet this for a year and a half.

[wistfulmemory.livejournal.com]

I just stay away from romance novels. I find it's easier that way (especially as I don't want the plot of the book I'm reading focusing just on the romance, though I'm fine with romance being involved with the story).

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Heh...I wasn't only talking about romance novels...it's everywhere.